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Douglas Thompson Fitzwilliam N.H. D.N.A.

Journal by douglasthompson

The Roche D.N.A. Roche Family Histrory, Posted By Douglas Thompson This is the Roche side of My Family .

Haplogroup R - Haplotype R-U106*

R1b Migratory Map - East to West

A Haplogroup is a population of varying size descended from a common ancestor, as evidenced by specific mutations. Haplogroups are NOT cultural, although a haplogroup can be strongly represented by a cultural population.
The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) has assigned hierarchical alphanumeric labels which can be presented graphically in the form of a haplogroup tree. It is shown in a compressed version below.

People must remember that the Ice Age (the Last Glacial Maximum) muddied the waters when it comes to developing an entirely orderly evolution within our Haplotype. Haplogroup R, spawned R1a, R1b, and Rb2. R1b, before the Ice Age, is thought to have existed in four regional variants :

North-Sea Baltic
Alpine-South German, and
In Europe, R1b was thought to have entered from the east as pre-historic hunter-gatherers. They migrated along rivers, coastlines and high ground to the Baltic, Med and Atlantic. All were thought to have lived originally in Russia near the Volga River, migrating in two tranches, west to the Russian-Baltic area and southwest to the Black Sea and South Germany.

Eventually the Russian Baltic evolved into North Sea Baltic and the South Germanic evolved into the Atlantic variants. The "names" evolved from mutations that occurred at a given time in one tiny section of male DNA called the 390 locus. But don't worry about that sort of thing, unless you are a scientist or geneticist.

It is felt that the original R1b had a value of 24 at DYS 390. Archaeological findings were matched to the genetic changes at 390, and they came up with the following ages for each of the four variants:

Russian-Baltic -- 24-28,000 years
North-Sea Baltic -- 21-25,000
Alpine-South German -- 18-22,000, and
Atlantic -- 14-18,000
We have 23 at 390, and it was found to a greater or lesser degree in the four variants:

Russian-Baltic -- 23%
North Sea-Baltic -- 38%
Alpine-South German -- 30%, and
Atlantic -- 18%
So the quick and dirty conclusion would be that we are North-Sea Baltic, and we might be, but R1b changes or evolves, differentiating and expanding in reverse, with the least differences in the older variants.

That is reflected in the Map at the Top of the page. It implies that we came west and, like many in R1b headed for shelter during the Ice Age for the Iberian Peninsula (which scientists call a Refugium). As we will see in a moment, things are not so straightforward. In fact, R1b sheltered in two places - one Iberia, and two, the south east.

All haplogroups [A to T] work in much the same way, except that timelines vary - and we are speaking here of male, not female - y not mt DNA. This all falls under the domain of Molecular Genealogy. Another term for it is "Anthrogenealogy".

I will try to avoid too much scientific detail; the specifics of ever-changing science of genetics are daunting that way madness lies!

The map below will give you an idea of what I mean consider that each of the labeled groups [A to T] has 20 or more subsets, and you will understand why I must stay close to our own (R1b). But it does serve by way of example.

As a haplotype within the R1b haplogroup, R-U106* is considered to have mutated into existence during or near the end of the the Ice Age perhaps in northwestern Europe, not the Iberian Peninsula. Assuming we started out as R (Paleolithic Man: 30,000 BC), you can see below that R1b split from R, and each went in opposite directions.

Note: Haplogroup R is identified by eight markers: M207, M306, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280, and P285 plus 42 mutations identifying 28 subclades. The majority of European Y DNA belongs to R. [if you already tested as R, ignore the foregoing].
Major Changes - 2008: R is known to have derived from M207; P297 combines M73 and M269 into R1b1b. M269 joins the M37, M65, M153, SRY2627, M222, P66, U106, and U152 to become R1b1b2. U152 joins the R-M126 and R-M160 lineages, as well as U152 to form R1b1b2h.

Caveats: Additional changes to R1a1 (indo-European) may result as testing of M56, M157, M64.2 and PK5 on P98(+). M18 and M335 have not been tested on P297(+) because of the absence of positive controls. Thus, the branches defined by M18 and M335 might descend from P297(+).

Three copies of the P25 lie within palindromic repeats with mutations at P25, and undergo reversion by gene conversion (translation - Mother Nature's mistakes and the body's sometimes ineffective attempts to repair them) require that this marker be used in conjunction with P297.

[A Marker is simply an identifiable location on a chromosome that varies from person to person, whose genetic inheritance can be tested. It is used with allele values (like numbers on a BINGO card) to help describe an man's haplotype.

Marker labels, such as M173 or DYS388, have no real meaning - they are IDs arbitrarily assigned to pieces of genetic tissue, so that everyone is talking about the same thing when using the marker or ID - like a name].

We have been recently confirmed by FTDNA as haplotype:
R1b1b2a1a4* or R-U106*

FTDNA - Nov/08

But the information above, plus the [*] indicates that there may be more testing ahead, tiny refinements to findings by researchers, in our genetic data that will confirm that designation or modify it slightly within a range.
We are fine to a point. They looked for L1-; L48+; M37; M65; M153; SRY2627; M222; P66; & U152 - and we didn't have them. But we had M269 (an important link); plus M173; M207; M343; U106 & P25 - the sometimes wonky one with palindromic repeats - and, if you check the chart below, you will see how some of these alphanumeric IDs take you one way and others another.

The green line on the chart traces how scientists (geneticists at FTDNA) found us to have evolved via mutation. The chart is clear and effective (I hope) in illustrating how Molecular Genealogy or GenoGenealogy works.

They followed the labeled sequence of mutations in our DNA samples back until there are no other parts that could be identified as proven (for now). Thus a mutation is a permanent structural alteration or change in a DNA sequence. Mutations in Y DNA - which, by the way is in the Y chromosome, and can be passed only by a male to his sons and through them to other male descendents.

Y DNA can be tested to determine both the male haplotype and haplogroup because it is passed on to all male descendants until another mutation occurs, and the process starts all over again with a new branch (haplotype) of the genetic line. This does not mean the death of the old one of course. Many twigs can sprout on many branches of many trees.

The paternal "Line of Descent" created - a direct line of descent from ancestral father to son to son to son - along an all male line - is what is traced in Y DNA testing. Below, you see a phylogenetic or Y DNA tree: a diagram showing our (and other) evolutionary lineage/s within our Haplogroup, R1b:

Our Latest R Grouping>
If you have been tested R1b but your results are different alpha-numerically, you can follow your own family's R1b development on the same chart. Your end point will vary as the individual parts vary and are, therefore, named differently.

Of course, the chart is not really for immediate family. It only goes to the branches. A branch can have many twigs. But I will be delighted to find my ancestral group (and, therefore, a place or places on the planet). If I don't find family, because they haven't tested, I will still consider this to have been a worthwhile exercise.

As for actual family, the trick lies in finding them, talking them into a test, and then putting up with them - in some cases :-) You might find them quite by accident as a result of your Y DNA results, but with so many of our surname, that would be almost like winning a lotto.

Quite a trick, but some, amazingly, have done it; and they have even had family reunions among living descendents of a common male ancestor. We are closing in on our origins. There was, given our location, a lot of interaction between us and our (Viking) neighbours, some violent, and some, hopefully, peaceful. Now, it would be terrific to be either Iberian or Northern R1b. It would mean that we are likely Anglo-Frisian (continental) or Celtic (insular) and, therefore, associated with either or two well known and document cultures.

They would be the post-Ice Age Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture/s of the Frisians taken to Britain by the Romans in AD 70 or with the Aurignacian peoples who did the amazing art work in the caves at Lascaux, France; Altimira, Northern Spain; or the open-air Fox Coa in Portugal about 12,000 years ago.

The latter re-populated western Europe from Iberia to Scandinavia after the Ice Age (reference Niall of the Nine Hostages). The former are assumed to have sheltered to the southeast (Anatolia and the Middle East).

They are sometimes found near Jewish populations, including Britain, leading some to believe they were brought from the southeast by the Romans. However, that also occurred with the Friesians and their allies in the northwest when they almost defeated Rome in AD 69 (more below), then located a little less to the northwest.

Eventually there was a country, Frisia, next to the Danish border, extending south. This means they were likely at least involved with the Corded-Ware/Single-Grave Culture/s - Pagans - who had Sagas and other beliefs, similar to those of the Scandinavians. They had their own gods and mythologies, perfectly suited to them and their way of life.

On them were based a body of law and a runic alphabet. Thus, there is some uncertainty about migratory patterns. You will see this in the lighter lines on the map at the very beginning of this section.

So we have gone deep into the composition and origin of our yDNA - it has told us where to look - in times past - for our ancestors - whether Roaches by then - or not. Genes came well before surnames.

It might be helpful to view a broader canvas (we are in red on the map - left). Because each group can be associated with vast areas, and there has been an intermingling of races in Europe, tests have divided haplogroups into haplotypes and even smaller divisions.
Large numbers of participants will be needed to allow elaboration of these patterns. In our case, for example, we are close to R1b1c9* or, with later nomenclature, R1b1b2g*.

Finally, the University of Arizona, tried to put a permanent name on the haplotype (admitting that it might be difficult to maintain consistency in future). But in, 2008 we had a new designation - one with even a short-hand version for convenience.

Translation R1b1c9 (S21), recently discovered by EthnoAncestry, appears to be the most common early marker for R1b1c. This group is most common in Frisia (now the Netherlands) and, in general, the predominant R1b Frisian haplogroup.

It may have originated towards the end of the last ice age, c 7000 BC, in northwestern Europe. It has several subgroups, each identified. We are neither with 100% certainty, thus R1b1c9*; R1b1b2g*; and for now R1b1b2a1a4* (R-U106*, short-form).

History had dubbed us Flemish, but I must admit, NW Europe feels like a better fit. Being up there after the Ice Age with Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes matches our temprament. Also, the Flemish are generally not big men; we have been, comparitively over the centuries, dominant in physical size. If there is a war, you want us on your side! Like the four associated groups, we can fight! The [*] means there is yet another marker or mutation to be found before we will know exactly where we fit between Angles and Frisians. Europeans insist we are Frisian, but the Americans want better science. One big difference is that the latter use more markers - 12-67 versus 6-8-12-20.

EthnoAncestry decided we were most common in Frisia (now the Netherlands) and, in general, the predominant R1b Frisian haplogroup. The same group is found in the English Midlands in much higher number than in Ireland.

Soon FTDNA came onside and filled out the designation - Anglo-Frisian - which presumably includes Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians - and certainly fits dominant characteristics. While I have a near match in Ireland and another in the Midlands, the European, Irish and Flemish Modals decided it for me. We are not within a country mile of either.

The one significant difference from the Anglo-Frisians to the North (also found in Jutland as Jutes (Danes), I can explain - looking in the historic record. There is good reason for our haplotype, once you throw in the Anglos with the Frisiens, possibly slightly different genetically, but either together or feeling they are one even when separate today.

Accepting that Frisians from the North and the Netherlands (the modern Benelux Federation) is easy when you understand that they migrated south by land in AD 250. So there is a real admixture of continental R1bs in northern Germany, western Europe and the English Midlands.

They first arrived in the Isles compliments of the Romans, were invited back in the 5th century by King Vortigern, may have been with the Danes later, and finally may have even been with the Conqueror, among others from the Benelux Region.

There is certainly no shortage of insular R1bs throughout the Isles (even if you include the Bretons). So our designation fits! Now, it is a simple matter of a few finishing genetic touches - a marker or two - to be confirmed by research.

Iberian Celts simply migrated north by land and sea after the Ice Age. I don't think a final determination in our case will involve a major change, but merely a more narrow geographic focus, more consistent with the average person's (my) understanding of nationalities, borders, genealogy and history.

We are either Anglo-Frisian, or something between one or the other by a genetic hair's breadth.

I am quite happy to wait - FTDNA has competent geneticists, were in this business early and have gone above and beyond for me on several occasions. If you are one of the surname Roache (by any of a multitude of spellings in many languages, living and dead, why not see discover where you belong.

Surnames: Thompson / Roche
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by douglasthompson Profile | Research | Contact | Subscribe | Block this user
on 2009-11-12 12:39:16

douglasthompson , from Jax.FL U.S.A., has been a Family Tree Circles member since Sep 2009. is researching the following names: THOMPSON, ROCHE.

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