George Pudney son of Joseph Pudney born Wellington NZ 1844. :: Genealogy
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George Pudney son of Joseph Pudney born Wellington NZ 1844.

Query by Victorroberts

George Pudney was farmer at Kaitoke and "adopted" a boy early 1900's. Boy was named James John Green---who was this boy who received a bequest in the will of Geo Pudney equal to that of his other grandchildren

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by Victorroberts Profile | Research | Contact | Subscribe | Block this user
on 2013-01-22 22:30:05

Victorroberts has been a Family Tree Circles member since Jan 2013.

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by ngairedith on 2013-01-23 04:04:15

hi Victor,
do you know ANYTHING else of this James John Green?? birth year? etc

was that George Pudney the dentist? as there were 2 at the same time, similar areas (Petone & Hutt)

George & Mary Louisa only had Doris Irene & Walter - is that correct?
I dont have anything on Walter. He was in England in 1931 when his mother died

all little bits of info help when trying to track things down
how many grandchildren in the will?
did James John change his name to Pudney?

that's enough questions for now :), I'll continue to have a look

by ngairedith on 2013-01-23 04:14:52

I doubt George was a Dentist in Willis St if he lived at Kaitoke, too far in those days surely

by Victorroberts on 2013-01-23 18:07:26

Hi Ngairedith
A little bit of background
George Pudney and John James Green are both cited in the genealogical history of an extended family member--the whole is a conundrum, as nothing to date can be proven
As an old genealogist I have undertaken to try and solve the almost impossible riddle---To your question
THe only mention of James John Green is in the wills of George Pudney and his wife Mary made in 1925--Geo died 1931 and his wife 1932
Hilda the daughter was the main beneficiary of these wills but was given the task of providing for James John Green in her will--she died 1949--no mention of James JOhn Green
They had one child only-- a daughter Hilda born 1883
Hilda in 1899 [aged 15] was a participant in an obvious shotgun wedding
Later divorce action in 1905 stated there was no issue from this marriage--I have doubts---socially unaceptable and also precludes any future church marriage, while legally there was probably a case of carnal knowledge, except that if married a wife could not give evidence against her husband
The question is---is this in any way related to James John Green?
The Geo Pudney of Kaitoke was born c1843/4 to Joseph and Elizabeth
He was therefore uncle to Geo Pudney born 1871
who was a dentist
Walter Pudney was an adopted child of George the dentist
[Adpoted must be taken as often not being a legal adoption, and sometimes to be solely a family transfer]
Hilda the only child of Geo Pudney had 4 children--the will only stated grandchildren as at that time Hilda was still of childbearing age

I am interested in what you information you hold of the Pudney family--especially any description of a male member
What I seek is the icidence if any of auburn hair
This then is a small proportion of my Pudney research into that period---in reality the family tree is only a skeleton, compared with the manner in which they lived [the flesh], which for the most part was governed by the sociology of that period
PS--Have others showed interest in the Pudney name

by Victorroberts on 2013-01-24 01:06:54

Hi Ngaire
just a bit more to keep you busy
My records show Arthur Pudney as being born 1873
John Thomas Pudney dropped the given name John--his wife E M Richardson was married to him in 1919, but died shortly after the wedding--she owned The Grand National Hotel Petone
Thomas Pudney then married Etel May Oakes--she died 1939 and he in 1944
The full research nis so long and so involved it may be preferrable [especially for me] to post info by Email as I hold quite a lot of official documents

by ngairedith on 2013-01-24 06:23:35

so far we have:

Hilda Pudney (1883-1949) born 20 July 1883
- the daughter of George Pudney (1843-1931) & Mary HILL (1852-1932)
- this George Pudney was a brother of Joseph Pudney (see notes)
Hilda married William Henry Edwards on 25 April 1899 aged 15.9
* If Hilda & William had a son he was not registered (that year) as an Edwards
* If James John Green was her son (which I think he probably was), where did she get that name from? (seems very random)
Hilda & William divorced in 1905
* What was William's birth/death dates?
* Where did they marry?
* Were they in Christchurch in 1904-1905?
Hilda (as Hilda Pudney) next married Patrick BURNS (1880-1955) on 5 Dec 1906 aged 23
- they had 4 children:
1908 - 1982 Dorothy Mary Burns
1910 - 1980 George Patrick Burns
1914 - 1997 Isabella Rose Burns
1919 - 1980 Victor Burns

John Thomas Pudney (1875-1944 who dropped the name John) was a son of:
Joseph PUDNEY (1840-1902) & Ann EDWARDS (1847-1910),
... Joseph Pudney was born in Wellington 8 months after his parents (Joseph (1816-1871) & Elizabeth 1818-1893) arrived in Wellington on the Aurora 22 Jan 1840
... Ann Edwards was a daughter of 'Totara Jack' Edwards of Taita

the known children of JOSEPH Pudney & ANN Edwards:
1867 - 1932 Joseph Pudney
- Joseph married Elizabeth Roebuch DAVIS (1871-1963) in 1891
1869 - 1944 John Thomas Pudney
- John Thomas married Emily May Richardson (1879-1919), (licensee of the Grand National Hotel in Petone), on 12 August 1919. She returned from Christchurch on 16th August (did she honeymoon there for 4 days?), then 3 days later, on 19th August, whilst talking with her sister she suddenly died of a heart attack. She was aged 40. Thomas next married Ethel May OAKES (1884-1939) in 1922
1871 - 1924 George Pudney, the Dentist
- George married Mary Louisa BEDELL in 1895
1873 - 1912 Arthur Pudney
- Arthur died 17 Nov 1912 in Wellington Hospital. He was 39
1875 - 1939 Mary Ellen Pudney
- Mary married Philip John HOCQUARD (1869-1934) in 1896 in Wellington
1877 - 1946 Fred Major Pudney
- Fred married Theresa Margaret CROWLEY (1881-1952) in Wellington in 1920
1879 - 1942 Bertie Pudney
- Bertie married ida Lydia THOMPSON (1881-1972) in 1901 in Wellington
1884 - 1944 Albert Pudney
- Albert married Alice MILLWARD (1883-1962) in 1912

by Victorroberts on 2013-01-24 18:25:19

Hi Ngaire
While I appear to have all of the Pudney tree, this information in my research is p-robably/hopefully just a means to an end
If the tree is the skeleton, what I seek is the "flesh"
My main aim is centred around John James Green
My extended family interest is in the family gossip handed down from a male person reputed to be born 1904 [this is far from proven]
This person claimed to be John James Green
However the story he told has so many contradictions etc, that the truth is far from proven
His story shows an intimate knowledge of the family of George Pudney, but does fall down on several major points, which raises the question of identity theft
The record of his later life is also riddled with "errors" making research difficult
I have contacted the granddaughter of Dorothy Burns--she lives in Christchurch
The manner in which I received answers to my questions re John James Green, made me think that she knew more than she disclosed--in fact I received not one bit of information that was of any help in my research of Green--any knowledge of this person was virtually denied
I may be over suspicious, but from what records I hold, I think Green was not readily accepted by Hilda and her family--so who was he? Your reply suggests the child of Hilda and W H Edwards---any reason for thia conclusion?
From my point of view there are at least three possibilities
Hilda's child.--A child of George Pudney---A child of another Pudney family member
All these postulations have merit, so the answer has to be rearched and hopefully proven
Irrespective of the heritage of Green, a consensus of opinion suggests that due to the provisions in the will of George Pudney he was "family"
Therefore, is your interest in Green specific or just part of the general family research
Of possible interest is the number of Pudneys who "adopted" children--who, quite often had a variety of names
Could you reply to my question on the colour of Pudney hair---it could be a vital clue in my research
Finally--as we appear to be be duplicating information in our messages, could you indicate your specific interests
Mine of course is solely--who was James John Green [and/or the person who claims to be that person]--the Pudney research is an attempt to discover any information on the conundrum
William Henry Edwards
Born 1878, died 1936. Married alice Ashcroft 1906--they had 4 children all after 1918
Edwards was a disatant relative of the Pudneys by marriage--this raises a question--was Edwards a [paid?]stand in for an unknown father
The marriage of Hilda took place at a Registrary Office in Wellington
The witnesses--George and Mary Pudney
The marriage and divorce raise all sorts of social and legal points
Some of the official BDM records of the period at the end of the 1800's have been lost so what is available and applicable for any reseach is questionable

by ngairedith on 2013-01-25 05:40:39

hi VR,

first, all my interest is in James John Green because of your query

It is intriguing and therefore of high interest so this has led me to an indepth research and to do this I was trying to establish family (ancestors & descendents).

I had to know who was who and where they slotted in (like George the Dentist & George the Farmer etc). When I have put them all in their 'slots' it will give a bigger picture which will tell all sorts of stories I'm sure and will also disclose some 'secrets' :) (works every time)

The more names I build up the more likely it is that I may come across the reason for the name James John Green (or not, if it was random) but more importantly, more info starts to 'put meat on the bones' as we get to 'know them'

My thoughts so far (similar to yours)
* William Henry Edwards was 'a pawn' to cover the pregnancy and he didn't know, or, as you say maybe 'paid' and therefore did know
* The family obviously knew (and still know) and if they STILL won't talk about it after 109 years!!! then it was a huge scandal ...
* this leads to the possibility that the father of James John Green was a family member, this is very likely as per George's will and would explain why Hilda herself did not readily accept him
(as yet have not come across mention of Hair colour)

I first thought that he may have been a son of William and that Hilda changed the child's name to 'hide' him from his father after the divorce but she didn't move far away from William - he died in Hukinga, (Akatarawas) & she died in Silverstream - so this is probably not the case

William Henry Edwards was the son of Thomas Edwards & Philadelpheia Benge, very old and respected families/settlers of Taita & Mangaroa. His grandfather was "Totara Jack" Edwards and, (as I highlighted above in the 3rd comment), the father of Ann Edwards who married Joseph Pudney, Hilda's uncle

so that's the summary for now but I'm looking forward, now that it's the weekend, to being able to spend more time 'delving'


ps - what did the person want who turned up claiming to be James?.
It is possible he actually knew James. Do you know what year he turned up and where from as this may indicate that James was then deceased. I would really like to know the "record of his later life (which) is also riddled with "errors" making research difficult" as there could be a number of clues there (although veiled)

you can send me a private message at any time if you prefer (just click on my user name and click on 'Contact) with anything else you may think relevant to the search

by Victorroberts on 2013-01-25 20:38:13

Hi Ngaire
The red hair----
the person perporting to be Green [my area of study] had auburn hair---his son had red hair and his daughter [only child] also had red hair
If any of the Pudney very extended] family had red hair, it could answer a lot of questions
In my studies over the years there have been many instances where persons have laid claim to being that of importance---as far as I can discover, some just wanting the attention/praise etc of others, while others did it for financial gain
My person of interest I am sure falls into the category of seeking attention/ praise etc
His original name is not proven---he claimed to be John James Green, but gave a birth name and date which did not fit comfortably
He then later states he changed his name [circa 1923-8] but there is no proof of this in any known record
In 1928 he and his girl friend moved to Auckland [from Wellington] where they lived together as man and wife, had children, and eventually married in 1944
During this period 1928-1944, his reputed history as recounted by his children is an amazing document--he did amazing feats without any formal training
Presently I am trying to establish [beyond doubt] the truth of some of these statements
This is a precis of the person I am researching
To understand the total, will require you to read many of the documents I hold
These documents do hold refences to living persons so that I feel some privacy is required
When I work out how to contact you direct [with the help of my wife] you will learn much more
When researching the subject I always tend to look at the sociology of the period
EG--George Pudney was a farmer---who helped on the farm?-this because the record shows George Pudney was also a contractor operating in Wellington--he had to have staff to run either or of his operations
Also another observation--Taking the above to mean that there may have been several employees on the Kaitoke farm [youth labour was the cheapest]--What made James Green so special
In the records I hold there are ever so many possible clues which however can not be proven--but there may be some truth hidden in these statements
There are some records of Hilda Pudneys school years-These records and others hold quite a large sdource of information--and not only the school record one of which was virtually proving George Pudney's contracting business, Wellington residential addresses, and often intriguing references regarding parent/ guardian of a child
Could you advise if there are other members of the Pudney family who have made contact with you--if so with much more information available, should they be contacted afresh
Just a little bit more to add to tour files

by Victorroberts on 2013-01-25 21:46:56

Hi Ngaire
Am I on the offline link?
Just checking

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