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Looking for ancestors of GGGrandmother Margaret McKenzie Hutchinson and ancestors of GGrandfather George W. Hayes

Journal by Konrad1

Margaret McKenzie Hutchison died in Victoria Australia and was aledgedly the daughter of a Sir Colin McKenzie of Midlothian. Can't verify her husband John Huthchison's ancestors either, also from Scotland. GGrandfather George William Hayes married Margaret Johnston Hutchison in Victoria SA in 1846 but I can't find out how he got to Australia. An English convict named George Hayes fits the description but he was not paroled until 1847 from Van Dieman's Land. Could he have been released prior to his parole approval?

Surnames: MCKENZIEANDHUTCHISON
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by Konrad1 Profile | Research | Contact | Subscribe | Block this user
on 2012-05-06 16:27:02

Konrad1 has been a Family Tree Circles member since May 2012.

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by lyn22 on 2012-05-06 19:15:14

I had a look on Geneology.com and found George William Hayes married Margaret Hutchison 1847 Portland it says his parents were Thomas Giles Hayes and Margaret Nicholls. George bred racehorses . he died in 1894 Robe South Australia and both are buried at Robe Cemetary I hope this helps.

by Konrad1 on 2012-05-06 20:39:34

Thanks I'll check it. It does conflict with my Australian Marraige Index which has George and Margaret married in 1847 in Victoria SA. For my other questions I did find a link between Margaret McKenzie Hutchison and Colin McKenzie based on the Findon Tables. The folklore mentioned in "Wild Colonial Girl" of Margaret's noble origin is apparently true. I am still trying to track John Francis Hutchison past his Scottish father and mother John Hutchison and Margaret Johnston.

by lyn22 on 2012-05-06 21:08:32

I live in Australia and I dont think there is a Victoria in S.A were are you from

by Konrad1 on 2012-05-06 23:52:03

I meant the State of Victoria, the smallest State in Australia. The family sheep station was Woolmit near Robe. I am from New York State. Herbert Mandifold Hayes was my maternal grandfather. In the 1890's he joined the British merchant marine and spent several years in the States of Maine and New York, was married twice, had several children and went back to sea in 1913 and the next record is the 1914 Australian census where he died in 1923. In the US he called himself Herbert Mandeville Hayes and listed his parents on his second marraige application as Margaret and George Hayes but said they were English which was technically true as at the time they would have been British Citizens. His Maine marraige was to an older woman so he made himself older and when he married my grandmother, after his first wife's death, he shed a couple years, averaging the two dates gives the year he was born in Australia. The first marraige he gave a ficticious first name for his father which mislead me because I even checked the records in Halifax, Nova Scotia and no Roderick Hayes with a wife Margaret ever lived there or anywhere else. The name Roderick he gave for his father in his Maine marraige application was a little odd but it turned out to be common in the McKenzie family. A global search in ancestry.com produced only one Herbert M. Hayes anywhere near that age and the similarity between Mandifold and Mandeville clinched it. The Australian records mirrored the American records and the British merchant fleet was the connector. The calculated age and names of his parents also confirmed his identity now I am going on from there. I think my grandmother knew where he was from but she was angry with him and only dropped hints such as his merchant marine connections and his having family somewhere in the former British empire.

by lyn22 on 2012-05-07 00:27:38

Left something out it says married at Portland Victoria 1847

by asheppard on 2012-05-07 04:05:12

Do you have this birth information for Herbert Manifold Hayes

Australia Birth Index, 1788-1922 about Herbert Manifold Hayes
Name: Herbert Manifold Hayes
Birth Date: 17 May 1867
Father's Name: George William Hayes
Mother's Name: Margaret Hutchinson
Birth Place: Bagdad, County Robe
Registration Place: Robe, South Australia
Page Number: 2
Volume Number: 53

His death index

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Herbert Manifold Hayes
Name: Herbert Manifold Hayes
Death Place: Horsham, Victoria
Age: 52
Father's Name: George Hayes
Mother's Name: Margaret Hutcheson
Registration Year: 1923
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration number: 1935
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871

This is the death for George William Haynes

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about George William Hayes
Name: George William Hayes
Death Date: 2 Sep 1894
Death Place: Mount Benson
Age: 75
Residence Place: Mount Benson Nr Robe
Registration Place: Robe, South Australia
Page Number: 212
Volume Number: 221
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819

Margaret's death info

Australia Death Index, 1787-1985 about Margaret Johnston Hayes
Name: Margaret Johnston Hayes
Death Date: 25 Oct 1894
Death Place: Bagdad Station Nr Robe
Age: 64
Residence Place: Bagdad Statoin Nr Robe
Registration Place: Robe, South Australia
Page Number: 288
Volume Number: 222
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830

copies of the death certificates may provide some further information

Their marriage has two entries, you may have to purchase both to get more information, it should give you their fathers names at least.

Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950 about George William Hayes
Name: George William Hayes
Spouse Name: Margaret J Hutcheson
Marriage Place: Victoria
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Year: 1846
Registration number: 1974

Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950 about G William Hayes
Name: G William Hayes
Spouse Name: M J Hutchison
Marriage Place: Victoria
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Year: 1846
Registration number: 34164

by Konrad1 on 2012-05-07 10:03:24

Thanks I had this information but was not aware that additional information might be available on the actual death certificates. I have never been to Australia, once in my lengthy military career I was scheduled to go there but was sent to South Vietnam instead. Now that I have the time and resources I may visit their yet.

by simba on 2012-05-11 07:14:02

I have just read all the above comments, I am the great great great granddaughter of John and Margaret Hutchison.
Francis (John) and Margaret left Scotland on board the "Saint Mungo" June 1839 arriving in Williamstown Victoria on the 6th Dec 1839. They arrived with their children Margaret Johnston, Ann, Elizabeth (my great great grandmother)Jane and Alexandrina. They settled at Moonee Ponds,today there is a street named after them Hutchison Street.
John died 3 years after arriving, leaving Margaret alone to raise their 6 children, they had a son William McKenzie who was born 29 Aug 1843.
She hear about the good land in the south east of South Australia and she set out on foot (along with Andrew Dunn) with a small gig for her six children and all her provisions and household goods piled high onto a bullock wagon. In South australia she established a successful sheep station which she named "Woolmet" after her childhood home in Scotland. The house still still standing today, and it is still in my family.
Margaret married Andrew Dunn on 18th June 1850 in Adelaide South Australia and they has a son James born 1844. James died 31 Jan 1868

I have hear about Margaret's parents being Sir Colin McKenzie and Lady Jean McKenzie, so I had some research carried by the British Ancestors in May 2009.

They found that Margaret's parents were William McKenzie and Jean Fotheringham and found that they lived at but did not own Woolmet House.
Margaret and Francis John Hutchison marriage took place before 1855, which was the start of compulsory statutory registration in Scotland. Woolmet is in the parish of Newton in Midlothian so they found the births and baptized records of 5 living children and one unnamed who died at 12 days.
Information on William MacKenzie can be found in 1851 cenus.

They also found the will of William and in it it states that " to my daughter Mrs Margaret MacKenzie or Hutchison, widow of Mr John Hutchison residing in Griechen Bay, near Adelaide, South Australia, all my bed and table linen, silver spoons,knives and forks, also the portraits of her mother and myself and a likeness of Queen Mary, and also for the use of herself and her children the one half of my library. To William MacKenzie son of the said Mrs margaret MacKenzie or Hutchison, my silver watch and seals. The will was 16 pages long.

Hope this helps

by Konrad1 on 2012-05-14 23:00:24

Thank you; as the great great grandson of John and Margaret, we are distant cousins. I found an online set of 1890 photos of a Woolmet House in Midlothian. I recently saw the William McKenzie and Jean Fotheringham marraige record on line at ancestry.com but there were no other details except William was a carpenter. I have ordered the Findon Tables because they supposedly show a Sir Colin McKensie with a first wife Jean in the right time frame and I was going to see if any children of that Jean were listed in the tables but this information would make that unnecessary. Do you know anything about the Hutchison's or Margaret Johnston who some ancestry site has listed as the mother of John Hutchison? I still have my father's family in Norway who have done some research on my paternal line but my mother never knew much about either of her parents. The next time I visit Scotland I should look up the family there. I am a retired Colonel from the US Army and am also a retired Attorney from the New York State Attorney General's Office, I am also the world's oldest full time Molecular Biology undergraduate student but I still have time for some travel and family history. Also was there any mention of Margaret Johnston and her husband George William Hayes in the will? My mother thought he might have been Irish but there is a George William Hayes born in 1823 in England in online records. I could find no record of a George William Hayes emigrating to Australia other than a George Hayes transportation from England mentioned above who did not leave Tasmania until a year after the marraige of Margaret and George.

by Clementia on 2012-06-02 09:19:03

I think you have made a mistake with Herbert Manifold Hayes.

1 Herbert Manifold HAYES
--------------------------------------------------
Birth: 17 May 1867, Bagdad, S.A.
Death: 1923, Horsham, Vic.
Father: George William HAYES (1819-1894)
Mother: Margaret Johnston HUTCHISON (1825-1894)

Letter from G.W. Hayes 1st Feb 1892
"Herbert was in Colombo.... to dispose of some Horses"

From a letter written by son George in 2003
1911 (year of Georges birth) my father commenced work at the Longerenong
Agricultural College a few miles from Horsham.

Spouse: Lena PETERS (DE PETRIE)
Birth: 1875, Nth Melbourne, Vic.
Death: 1959, Horsham, Vic.
Father: Francis PETERS (DE PETRIE)
Mother: Ellen BOYLE

Parents came from Belgium, town of Anvers. Arrived in Australia in 1871.

Marriage: 11 Nov 1899, South Yarra, Vic.

Children: Herbert Erskine (Bert) (1900-)
Margaret (1908-)
George (1911-)

1.1 Herbert Erskine (Bert) HAYES
--------------------------------------------------
Birth: 1900, Hotham West, Vic


Name HAYES, HERBERT ERSKINE
Service Australian Army
Service Number V360235
Date of Birth 24 Jul 1900
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC
Date of Enlistment 4 Jun 1942
Locality on Enlistment COBURG, VIC
Place of Enlistment COBURG, VIC
Next of Kin HAYES, CHRISSIE
Date of Discharge 21 Sep 1945
Rank Private
Posting at Discharge 14 Battalion
WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display
Prisoner of War No

HORSHAM LAWN CEMETERY
&#8232;HAYES Christina Elizabeth&#8232;
HAYES Herbert Erskine&#8232;

Spouse: Christina Elizabeth CASEY
Marriage: 1930


1.2 Margaret HAYES
--------------------------------------------------
Birth: 1908

1.3 George HAYES
--------------------------------------------------
Birth: 9 Nov 1911, Horsham, Vic.

From a letter written by George
I served in the Army for 27 years, attained the rank of
Major.

Service record go back view certificate
Name HAYES, GEORGE
Service Australian Army
Service Number 3422 (VX14744, VX15028)
Date of Birth 9 Nov 1911
Place of Birth HORSHAM, VIC
Date of Enlistment 10 May 1940
Locality on Enlistment HORSHAM
Place of Enlistment CAULFIELD, VIC
Next of Kin HAYES, GWENDOLINE
Date of Discharge 12 Dec 1955
Rank Lieutenant
Posting at Discharge 2/11 ARMD CAR REGT
WW2 Honours and Gallantry None for display
Prisoner of War No

Drysdale Retirement Village

Spouse: Gwendoline SUCKLING
Birth: 4 Apr 1914
Marriage: 1931

There was no mention by son George of his father Herbert being in the merchant marine etc.

Herbert's father George William was born in Tasmania to Thomas Giles Hayes and Margaret Nichols.
Sorry to spoil your research.

by Konrad1 on 2012-06-02 11:22:35

Thank You; Any information helps whether it supports or disproves. My Herbert Mandifold Hayes assumption was based on; 1. the similarity of names (Herbert Mandeville Hayes)I could not find even a similar Herbert M. Hayes in online records 2. The Birth day; in Australia May 17, 1867, in America 1st records show May 1863 (year calculated) 2nd records May 16 1873 (year calculated) this was based on census and marraige ages. In the first records case he married an older woman and in the second a younger woman so I concluded his real age was somewhere in between. 3, Parents 1st names; both marraiges used mother Margaret 2nd Father George, 4. Public records, I only found Herbert listed in the 1914 and 1919 Australian Electoral rolls. The US Herbert was only found of record from 1894 until 1913. The US Herbert was in the British Merchant Marine and went to sea regularly from at least 1910 until 1913 when he was not heard from again. 5. I found an Australian marraige record to a Lena Lawrence in 1918 but not the 1899 record you refer to. I had seen the Tasmanian record for George William Hayes but did not think it matched the George William married to Margaret Hutchison because I found an Australian obituary for a different family that claimed that lineage. I did find a George William Hayes born in Middlesex, London, England in 1823 who was in the Merchant Marine around 1844 and I could not find any English records for him after that date. I believe there were two George Hayes families living in Victoria at about the same time as there was a 1847 marraige Australian marraige record along with the 1846 certificate and the other family that claimed the Tasmanian link also lived in Victoria. The employment in Australia from 1911 is clearly a conflict as well as the birth dates of Herbert Hayes and the other two children. I found Herbert Hayes Australian obituary notice from 1923 and that stated he had been working at the Agricultural College, Horshams for 14 years. In that case I surmized that some one confused the year of arrival (1914) with years living there. In conclusion your new evidence raises questions with my research.

by Konrad1 on 2012-06-02 12:14:00

I have posted Herbert M. Hayes picture (birth about 1867 death possibly 1923) as my profile photo in case anyone has a photo of him or near relative for comparison.

by Konrad1 on 2012-06-04 00:56:56

1909 Victoria Australia Electoral Rolls show Lena Hayes but not Herbert Hayes.
Herbert Manifold Hayes Australian death index show birth year about 1871, actual 1867, consistent with age range given by Herbert in USA who adjusted his age also.
Using statistical comparisons of similarities between Herbert Manifold Hayes and Herbert Mandeville Hayes based on currently known data and assigning probability values to each similar data point yields probability of about 60 billion to one that individuals are the same; however people still win the lottery so statistical evidence is only an indicator and new facts may emerge.
USA Herbert Mandeville Hayes was active member of British Merchant Marine unknown if Australian Herbert was ever in merchant marine only known occupation was stockman later in life with three different start dates: 1909 obituary, 1911 younger son's recollection and 1914 calculation based on presence on 1914 voter roll.

by Konrad1 on 2012-06-04 01:10:40

Statistic Correction to above the odds of 60 billion to one have to be put in context of an estimated World population of about a billion at that time so actual probability is about 60 to one.

by agdas22red on 2012-10-27 09:48:56

hello,i am new to this site and new to doing my family tree.i would appreciate any help i can get.my great grandparents x4 were john hutchison married to margaret johnston i believe from gilmerton midlothian edinburgh one child i have found of theirs was matthew hutchison born 20/9/1817.i don't know if there were any more children.i would be greatful for any info.thanks

by Konrad1 on 2012-10-27 10:39:20

My Ancestry.com Langlie Revision A tree has my 3rd GG as John Hutchison 1771-1851 and Margaret Johnston 1787-1851 from Liberton, Midlothian, Scotland and a lot of unverified back tree from the little leaves on other sites. I descended from their son John Francis Hutchison 1802-1842. His history in Australia is discussed above. Despite the scepticism of one of the commentators above I have reviewed all the known information from Australia and every place else and my descent from the Hutchisons holds up. This does not apply to your direct ancestry but I have corrected the origins of George William Hayes and now conclude he was from Tasmania and interestingly his grandmother Elizabeth Hayward at 13 was the youngest female in the First Fleet to Botany Bay and mentioned in the book The Fatal Shore.

by Konrad1 on 2012-12-30 23:32:14

I found the merchant marine connection of Herbert Manifold Hayes in his Great Grandfather William McKenzie's will. Captain McKenzie, among other bequests, left his telescope and other property to his son Joseph McKenzie Shipmaster out of Liverpool, Joseph was the great uncle of Herbert Manifold Hayes. My grandfather Herbert Mandeville Hayes got into the merchant marine because his great uncle was a shipmaster out of Liverpool. This should answer Clementia above who questioned among other things Herbert Manifold Hayes connection to the merchant marine. Not only were both men the same approximate age with the same birthday, 16/17 May, and the same parents names Margaret/Marguerite and George Hayes but there was no conflict between the Australian and US records. Even to the point that the only time the Australian wife was shown to be living with Herbert was when the US records show he had left his US wife. Both Herberts had the same psychological profile adjusting their ages to their spouses, gentrifying their names and keeping the spouses from knowing about their birth family. The Australian wife did not know Herberts real age, anything about his past and no member of Herbert's family (per his obituary) appear to have attended his funeral even though they did not live that far away. There is no indication in any family tree that Herbert's birth family knew what happened to him after about 1892.

by Konrad1 on 2014-07-25 11:05:37

Changed profile picture to show comparison with Herbert Manifold Hayes in Australia and a few years later in the US.

by Konrad1 on 2014-07-25 11:08:51

I have further researched Herbert Hayes in Australia and during the years he was in the United States only his wife is show in any postal records and only his wife registered to vote as required by law.

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