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Looking for MANN family of New Zealand/Australia - Lizbeth and Allec Zam

Journal by darianzam

I'm seeking any information on Lizbeth (sp) and Allec (sp) Zam. My grandfather Joseph Zam arrived to Wellington in 1916 with his sister Lizbeth - probably came via Scotland from Theodosia in Russia (now part of the Ukraine). They were both tailors and Joseph had a suit and uniform factory in central Auckland. He passed away in 1959. What I was told by my grandmother was that Joseph's sister married a Jack (Jacob?) Mann and they removed to Australia where they had two daughters, Nita and Freda. I have no information on Allec except he may also have lived in Australia for a time. And no leads on the Manns. Spelling of my great-aunt's name could be Lizbeth, Lizbet, Lispeth, Lizabet. Who knows - I've tried them all and turned up nothing!

Surnames: BARNETT MANN YOUNG ZAM
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by darianzam Profile | Research | Contact | Subscribe | Block this user
on 2012-11-11 22:09:45

Social historian, writer, artist.

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by Crawford on 2012-11-12 02:51:12

Hi there,
On BDM NZ there is a Liza Lam who married Jack Udovich in 1916 - Ref 1916/8776.
Could this be your great aunt?
Also found this on Papers Past. Auckland Star, Volume LXXI, Issue 193, 15 August 1940, Page 6.
For failure to comply with a decree of restitution, Joseph Zam (Mr. Hall Skelton) was granted a decree nisi against Grace Zam.

This is probably not new information for you??
All the best with your search.

by darianzam on 2012-11-12 03:32:47

The first is a serious possibility. I'm amazed I have not found that yet. There's some things about it that don't really make sense. Lizabeth Zam, Liza Zam...it's got to be. It is starting to ring a bell that she may have referred to herself as Liza. I was always told that she married a Jack Mann, not Udovich. My aunt remembers that Allec changed his name to Mann. It simply sounds like I've been given the wrong information by my grandmother, and I took that as the gospel! Liza seems to have stayed in Wellington where there are electoral records up to the late 1960s. I am starting to figure out they all came to Sydney, Allec (sp) stayed and changed his name, and then Lizabet moved back to Sydney by the late 1950s. I know that when my grandfather died she "came back" - from where wasn't specified. I was told Australia. Indeed looking at the rolls there is a break between 1957 and 1969. Likely she returned to New Zealand to live late in life. I think this has given me a breakthrough I needed - so THANKS!

The reference you mention from Papers Past was my grandfather's first marriage from 1934-1939. He married my grandmother the following year. We never knew Grace or her family and were in fact told she passed away (I guess people were a lot more embarassed about divorce back then!)Cheers

by Crawford on 2012-11-12 17:06:12

Isn't is great when you get a breakthrough!
On reading through my response I see that I've made a mistake with Liza - her surname on BDM is actually Zam not Lam - my mistake, sorry about that. But it's good that you might now be on the right track.
I had a similar situation, my uncle told me the surname for an aunt and I chased around for ages trying to find her until finally I realised he had simply got it wrong! cheers.

by darianzam on 2012-11-12 17:31:52

It really is great after hammering at it on and off for five plus years. It just goes to show that BDM isn't foolproof when it comes to searching. Second pair of eyes also helps. Now I have found a slew of possible matches in the Australian records and it seems my grandfather and Liza may have passed through Australia. Just because the immigration record says the ship came from London...I assumed that they left straight from Europe (why wouldn't you?). But there's no reason why it didn't pick up in Sydney of course. Ah, the pitfalls of trying to actually make sense of factual clues!

by Crawford on 2012-11-14 21:05:22

Looks like Jack Udovich and Jack Mann were one and the same person.
Found this on Papers Past - the plot thickens!!

BAILIFF'S POWERS

MUST NOT BREAK AND ENTER.

An interesting point of law regarding the powers of a bailifE in executing a distress warrant was emphasised in a reserved judgment delivered by Mr. E. Page, S.M., yesterday in the case of Holden v. Udovich. The plaintiif, Arthur Holden, contractor, sought, to recover from J. Udovich, commonly known as J. Mann, grocer, Kilbirnie, the sum of 7 10s for work done and 50' damages for alleged wrongful distress. The plaintiff occupied as tenant a shed belonging to the defendant', and undertook, as carpenter, certain small repairs to the front of the defendant's shop, alleging that the amount of the contract money should be set off ......

Evening Post, Volume CII, Issue 12, 14 July 1921, Page 4 (there's more to the article - but I'll leave it to you to get the rest)

Looks promising?
Cheers
R.

by darianzam on 2012-11-14 21:11:32

Far out! It kind of makes sense. My grandmother seemed pretty definite while we were doing the tree about the Mann surname, even listing all the kids with Surname Mann one by one, that's a pretty hard error to make. So they did change their name. Interesting. But I wonder why Mann? That's kind of left field. The only reaon I can think of is that they were following the brother Allec's lead. Keep investigating I suppose - long term. Definitely on an official basis, they registered in the electoral roll under their government name up until the late 1960s. Persistence is key to cracking these ones! Thanks again!

by SilverVixen on 2012-12-06 08:09:44

Have the ships manifest for Mr J Zam and Miss L Zam Departed 13 December 1915 from London to Aukland, NZ Mr Zam was a 22 year old Tailor, Miss Zam was 23 and a Domestic. they sailed on the ship ROTORUA, the steamship line was teh NZ Shippin Company

by SilverVixen on 2012-12-06 09:14:43

PS They came from Russia :
There are Two Zam's that might or might not be Allec
Mr A Zam : sailed 30 September 1933 from London to Melbourne on the ORFORD DOB calculated from age was 1891 : he was a Tailor, address was given as 229 Antrim Road, Belfast

Then there is Mr Alexander Zam who travelled with Mrs Elizabeth Zam on the EURIPEDES: 11 March 1921 from London to Sydney DOB Calculated from age 1891 a Married Tailor. Last address 32 Govan Street Glasgow. Looking at DOB's could even be the same man

by darianzam on 2012-12-07 17:29:16

Thanks SilverVixen! This is amazing information. I would say, yes - the same person. The only other A. Zam would have been their father (Aaron) and if the maths says the he was born 1891, the same year as his son, well - that's just not a possibility, is it. So Joseph came to Sydney with the sister, they went to New Zealand. Then at some point she went back after her marriage to Jack Udovitch/Mann to see the parents in Glasgow. Then Alex and Lizbeth came back to Sydney. Then Alex went back to, probably Glasgow, and then spent time in Ireland, or perhaps by then the parents had moved to Ireland. Maybe a look in the Irish records will reveal something because I've had no luck with the Scottish ones. Russians in Ireland - go figure.

by darianzam on 2012-12-08 20:00:25

The 1921 manifest shows Alexander's wife - an Elizabeth Zam, born c 1898. I didn't look too closely at it at first - thinking that it was his sister Lizabeth born 1892. Whoopee! Another piece of the puzzle filled in thanks to FTC.

by SilverVixen on 2012-12-08 20:05:25

Yes I thought that was a bit confusing : glad to help

by darianzam on 2012-12-08 20:14:26

Get this, it also shows they brought two infants with them. We were always told he married, and they never had any children!

by SilverVixen on 2012-12-08 20:37:33

Hey Ho so they did not always tell the truth : my Scottish ancestors were such a bunch of liars, why should your Russian ones be any different? c'est la vie as we say over here. bonne chance mon nouvel ami

by darianzam on 2012-12-08 21:49:31

Well, there were a lot of mistakes and not-entire-truths. However, there is a possibility, that both children died, which wasn't something you'd rule out then - because I can't really see what motive there would be for saying they had no children if it wasn't true.

by darianzam on 2012-12-08 22:51:12

Finally a breakthrough - I just found the death record of Alexander Mann, died in 1980 in Australia at 89 years old. Parents: Aaron and Hannah. Perfect match. Doesn't say what area. So he and his wife officially changed their name to that of his sister and her husband's "assumed" surname.

by SilverVixen on 2012-12-09 09:58:17

If you try Scotlands People on the following website in the "Valuation Rolls" for 1915 there are two Zam's Alexander and Aron (sic) both in Glasgow but at different addresses. You will have to buy credits to viuew the information but might add another piece to your jigsaw


http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

by darianzam on 2012-12-10 02:33:36

Thanks. I did actually have the forsight to check SP a couple of times and it kept telling me there was nothing. Of course the third time it showed some matches. After working out their issue with the viewing of documents, which needs to be set specifically to types of browsers, I was able to pick up a lot more information, including apparently another sibling which nobody seems to know about(until now). Although, I had the same problems in another browser so there are some issues with their site.

by darianzam on 2013-03-21 01:31:06

Update: Recently traced Alex and Elizabeth Mann (Zam) to a Sydney Cemetery; buried in the Jewish section. Since I discovered the unknown sibling of Alex's Kate, a whole new branch of the family has opened up that I was never aware of, nor it seems was anyone else. Never figured out who the two children were that they brought with them to Australia. The most likely assumption is that they were chaperoning two children from Scotland to Australia for other members of the Jewish Community. I guess we may well never know the answer...

by darianzam on 2013-06-15 07:57:15

Since March I have uncovered a great deal of information about this branch of the family. Liza married a Jack Mann (Jakob K Udovich, from Starodub in Russia) in Wellington. They owned several properties around Wellington including commercial ones. Jack worked as a grocer having a shop through the 1920s in Upland Street. The building is still there. Later he became a furrier and manufactured garments. They, like Liza's brother Alec (Alex Zam) adopted the surname Mann, which has made tracing all of them far more difficult. Mann has it's origins in Scotland where the family moved from Feodosiya in Russia. It is also a common Jewish name - so it was probably picked because it straddled both worlds nicely and sounded both Yiddish and gentile at the same time. In the 1960s Liza changed her name to Lisa. So by this time her name was completely different from what it had started out as and that is the name she was buried as - Lisa Mann. It was very difficult to find her.
Jack and Liza had two daughters Nita (Anita, married Philip Samuel Kolsby)and Frieda(Freda,married Myer/Michael Begelman). Neither births seem to have been registered.
Joseph, Liza, Alec not only had one forgotten sister Katie, but I eventually, to my disbelief - turned up an additional four - Bella ( married Robert Jesner), Sonia (married John Slane), Mannia or Annie (married David Medvidoff), and Hasia which I suspect was Katie Slatopolsky's Jewish name. Bella Jesner came to Australia in the late 1950s and died in Victoria. At this time I don't know why she went there and can only assume she had children
who had moved there - but I have been unable to find out anything more. Another thing we did not know is that my great-grandmother Hannah Zam came from Scotland to Wellington and died here. All this time she has been in Karori Cemetery and had been forgotten. Amazing! It's been quite an adventure of discovery.

by JamieHind on 2014-03-02 09:53:25

Hi there,

I am hoping you will get this even though it's been a few months since your last post... I was searching the internet to see if I could find out anything about my family who migrated from Russia to Scotland, and it seems that I have!! And I think I may be able to fill in some of the story for you!!

I happen to be Sonia Slane's (ne ZAM) great grandson and was born in Glasgow. I can therefore find out quite a bit about the Zam family, especially from my grand mother (Sonia's daughter), who I would need to contact to get all the right information. But it does look like (especially after seeing your last post) you're on the right track.

What I know off the top of my head is that Aaron Zam and his wife Hannah (ne Malinovski) left Feodosiya along with their 7 children : Alec, Joseph, Cassie, Bella, Liza (elizabeth), Sonia and Magna. The only one that doesn't fit is the Katie that you found (may be Cassie changed her name??). Either all, or most of them anyway, spent time in Berlin (at the time it was relatively safe for Jewish people) before moving up to Scotland, where the family later split (with part of them going to live in Australia and possibly the US). My great grandmother, Sonia, married an irish man named John Slane. She died in 1986, the year of my birth, and was aged 86/87.

But before I get into too much detail and over excited it would be great to know if you are still checking this post! I would also have to contact my grand mother to get all the details about the Zam family's departure from Russia and their comings and goings around the globe aswell as who married who... I'm sure it would be interesting to share the information we both have, as I have been wanting to find out more about the southern hemipshere side of my family for quite some time!

Hope to hear from you soon

PS : Funnily enough, I even have a younger brother who is called Joseph, named after your grand father!

by darianzam on 2014-03-02 10:10:18

Hi Jamie, finally! I have been desperately trying to contact your branch of the family for the last year - everything from the last publisher of Archie Hind's books to the My Heritage where I've left two messages for you (one just a few days ago!)I had just about given up in frustration since after a dozen or so messages to different people nobody had got back to me and the publishers could not find any contact details for Eleanor. Yes, I have had leaps and bounds on the tree since then and it's quite large now! I wonder if Cassie was Hasia. Her name was put in the tree by Liza but nobody recalls anyone by that name. Katie (Gaetez)was the oldest sister, born eight years before Alec. She married into the Zlatopolski family in Glasgow and the descendants from that branch now named Slater live in England and Australia...none remaining in Scotland that I know of. How fantastic to finally hear from your side. Here's my email address: darianzamdesign@gmail.com.

by JamieHind on 2014-03-02 10:55:20

Well done for not giving up!!

I must say I wasn't expecting to find anything when I starting looking. I had tried a few years ago to see if I could anything about the Zam family after their move to scotland but that would have been well before your post, and possibly before BDM was online.

I was just visiting my gran in November last year and we were discussing how it would be great to trace everyone and possibly get in touch with some Zam family members and/or their descendants. I haven't ever actually tried to establish a proper family tree, but I'm seriously thinking about it now that part of the link is found.

Anyhoo, Cassie could possibly be Hasia (an anglicised version?) and you're right, I had forgotten about Katie. I will take down your e-mail address and get back in touch as soon as I have spoken to my gran, Eleanor (she has a great memory and loves to chat!), who was, as you have found out, married to the late Archie Hind. I will also see if any other family members know anything that could be of interest to you.

Will be in touch soon!!

PS : incidently, i'll be going to my mother's later today and i'm pretty sure she has a whole load of Zam family pictures. I'll be sure to scan them to!!

by darianzam on 2014-03-02 18:50:21

Yes, I tried about seven years back and wasn't able to find anything. A lot less online then but I also didn't know where to look. I am the last Zam in the line and the name will die with me which is sad. You'll also see in my journal an entry seeking the Hind family. I guess you must be my second cousin. I have the family tree online at Geni but I'll need to know where you fit (Martin or Calum?) and an email address to invite you. That would be fantastic to see some old images. We barely have any old pictures; well, none. I have dug up a few things over the last eight months from relatives and have a nice one of Hannah,with Joe, Sonia and Mannia as children purported to be taken in 1904. I'd also love to talk to Eleanor. I've had a hard time finding out about our great-grandparent's siblings because anyone who would know anything has passed away and the only person who scribbled something down (Liza) got things quite mixed up - even got her grandparents wrong. Look forward to hearing from you.

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