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Scandinavian Marriages during the Vikings Times

Scandinavian Marriages during the Vikings Times - Viking Romance and Love
Viking Life
Even though Vikings are well known for their courage and spirit of invading new land, when it came to love they were very caring and sometimes even shy about it.

Viking marriages were similar to the rest of Europe in the aspect that they were mostly forced. A marriage made because of love was almost unheard of - meaning that a Viking would marry a woman who was strong and could take care of children properly - and definitely not for love.

When a Viking was to marry, the celebration was held most of the time outside, but alas it also happened inside in front of their gods. God statues had to be placed specially during Friday which was the Frigg Day - the day devoted to Frig who was the goddess of marriage.

The fear shown by Vikings to their gods was enormous - to such degree that they feared doing anything wrong at all during their wedding as it would constitute the couple's doom. If the bride was to trip in her way to the feast, their marriage was certainly going to be a failure.

When the actual ceremony took place, among many other rituals, they exchanged swords in which the male Viking gave his sword to her wife who would pass it on to their first born son when he reached a certain age. The bride, on the other side, would pass the groom another sword which represented the whole family and he had to take care of it like he took care of his own family.

When all the formal celebrations were completed, everyone headed inside the keep for a feast. This is when if the bride tripped, so would their marriage. Subsequently, the groom was specially careful about taking care of his new wife.

This changed completely after the introduction of Christianity to Norway and Sweden, but alas; even Christianity was influenced by some Viking practices as it can still be seen today.

Thompson is a Viking Name 100% , it go's back way ferther that Scottish

Thompson is a Viking name , as well as Scottish , my DNA has took me back to 30,000 BC to the last Glacial Maximum (Ice age) .
Please read my other posts to learn more !

Thank you
Douglas Thompson

6 comment(s), latest 11 months, 2 weeks ago

My Viking Blood

The Viking age has long been associated with unbridled piracy,
when freebooters swarmed out of the northlands in their longships to
burn and pillage their way across civilized Europe. Modern scholarship
provides evidence this is a gross simplification, and that during this
period much progress was achieved in terms of Scandinavian art and
craftsmanship, marine technology, exploration, and the development of
commerce. It seems the Vikings did as much trading as they did
raiding.

The title "Viking" encompasses a wide designation of Nordic
people; Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians, who lived during a period of
brisk Scandinavian expansion in the middle ages, from approximately
800 to 1100 AD. This name may be derived from the old Norse vik(bay or
creek). These people came from what is now Denmark, Sweden, and
Norway, and had a self-sustaining, agricultural society, where farming
and cattle breeding were supplemented by hunting, fishing, the
extraction of iron and the quarrying of rock to make whetstones and
cooking utensils; some goods, however, had to be traded; salt, for
instance, which is a necessity for man and cattle alike, is an
everyday item and thus would not have been imported from a greater
distance than necessary, while luxury items could be brought in from
farther south in Europe. Their chief export products were, iron,
whetstones, and soapstone cooking pots, these were an essential
contribution to a trade growth in the Viking age.

The contemporary references we have about the Vikings stem
mainly from sources in western Europe who had bitter experiences with
the invaders, so we're most likely presented with the worst side of
the Vikings. Archaeological excavations have shown evidence of
homesteads, farms, and marketplaces, where discarded or lost articles
tell of a common everyday life. As the Viking period progressed,
society changed; leading Chieftain families accumulated sufficient
land and power to form the basis for kingdoms, and the first towns
were founded.

These market places and towns were based on craftsmanship and
trade. Even though the town dwelling Vikings kept cattle, farmed, and
fished to meet their household needs, the towns probably depended on
agricultural supplies from outlying areas. They also unfortunately did
not pay as much attention to renovation and waste disposal as they did
to town planning, as evidenced by the thick layers of waste around
settlements. In contemporary times the stench must have been
nauseating.

Trade, however, was still plentiful, even in periods when
Viking raids abounded, trade was conducted between Western Europe and
the Viking homeland; an example of this being the North Norwegian
chieftain, Ottar, and King Alfred of Wessex. Ottar visited King Alfred
as a peaceful trader at the same time as Alfred was waging war with
other Viking chieftains. The expansion of the Vikings was probably
triggered by a population growth out stepping the capacities of
domestic resources. Archaeological evidence shows that new farms were
cleared in sparsely populated forests at the time of their expansion.
The abundance of iron in their region and their ability to forge it
into weapons and arm everyone setting off on raids helped give the
Vikings the upper hand in most battles.

The first recorded Viking raid occurred in 793 AD, the holy
island of the Lindisfarne monastery just off the Northeast shoulder
of England was pillaged, around the same time, there are recorded
reports of raids elsewhere in Europe. There are narratives of raids in
the Mediterranean, and as far as the Caspian Sea. Norsemen from Kiev
even attempted an attack on Constantinople, the capital of the
Byzantine Empire. Unfortunately, in the picture handed down to us in
written accounts, the Vikings are portrayed as terrible robbers and
bandits, this is strictly a single sided view; and, while the above
statement is probably true, they had other traits as well. Some of
their leaders were very skillful organizers, as evidenced by the fact
that they were able to establish kingdoms in already-conquered
territories. Some of these, such as the ones established in Dublin
and York did not survive the Viking period; Iceland, however, is still
a thriving nation. The Viking Kingdom in Kiev formed the basis of the
Russian Empire.

The remains of fortresses dated to the end of the Viking
period, have been found in Denmark; the fortresses are circular and
are divided into quadrants, with square buildings in each of the four
sections. The precision with which these castles were placed indicates
an advanced sense of order, and a knowledge of surveying techniques
and geometry in the Danish Kingdom. The farthest westward drive
occurred around 1000 AD, when people from Iceland or Greenland
attempted to plant roots in the North coast of Newfoundland in North
America, however, conflicts arose between these colonists and the
indigenous Indians or the Eskimos, and the colonists gave up.

Eventually, the Vikings plundering raids were replaced by
colonization; in the north of England, place names reveal a large
Viking population, farther south in Britain, an area was called The
Danelaw. The French king gave Normandy as payment to a Viking
chieftain so that he would keep other Vikings away. At the end of the
Viking age, Christianity was widely accepted in the Nordic countries.
It replaced a heathen religion, in which gods and goddesses each had
power over their domain; Odin was their chieftain, Thor was the god of
the warriors, the goddess Froy was responsible for the fertility of
the soil and livestock; Loki was a trickster and a sorcerer and was
always distrusted by the other gods. The gods had dangerous
adversaries, the Jotuns, who represented the darker side of life.

Burial techniques indicate a strong belief in the afterlife;
even though the dead could be buried or cremated, burial gifts were
always necessary. The amount of equipment the dead took with them
reflected their status in life as well as different burial traditions.
A clue to the violent nature of Viking society, is the fact that
nearly all the graves of males included weapons. A warrior had to have
a sword, a wooden shield with an iron boss at its center to protect
the hand, a spear, an ax, and a bow with 24 arrows. Helmets with
horns, which are omnipresent in present day depiction's of Vikings
have never been found amongst relics from the Viking period. Even in
the graves with the most impressive array of weapons, there are signs
of more peaceful activities; sickles, scythes, and hoes lie alongside
of weapons; the blacksmith was buried with his hammer, anvil, tongs,
and file. The coastal farmer has kept his fishing equipment and is
often buried in a boat. In women's graves we often find jewelry
kitchen articles, and artifacts used in textile production, they were
also usually buried in boats. There are also instances of burials
being conducted in enormous ships, three examples of this are: ship
graves from Oseberg, Tune, and Gokstad, which can be seen at the
Viking ship museum at Bygdoy in Oslo. The Oseberg ship was built
around 815-820 AD, was 22 meters (72 ft.) long and its burial was
dated to 834 AD.

The Gokstad and Tune ships were constructed in the 890's, were
24 meters (79 ft.) and 20 meters (65 ft.) in length, respectively, and
were buried right after 900 AD. In all 3 a burial chamber was
constructed behind the mast, where the deceased was placed to rest in
a bed, dressed in fine clothing, ample provisions were placed in the
ship, dogs and horses were sacrificed, and a large burial mound was
piled on top of the vessel; there are even instances in which
servants, who may or may not have chosen to follow their masters in
death, were sacrificed also. Some ship-graves in the Nordic countries
and in Western European Viking sites were cremated, while the large
graves along the Oslofjord were not. There are remnants of similar
graves in other locations and it seems to have been standard practice
to include sacrificed dogs and horses, fine weapons, some nautical
equipment such as oars and a gangplank, balers, cooking pots for
crewmembers, a tent and often fine imported bronze vessels which
probably held food and drink for the dead.

Their sea-going vessels were very seaworthy, as has been
demonstrated by replicas which have crossed the Atlantic in modern
times. The hull design made the ships very fast, either under sail or
when oars were used. Even with a full load, the Gokstad ship drew no
more than 1 meter (3.3 ft) of water, which means it could have been
easily used for shore assaults. The ships were made to be light-weight
and flexible, to work with the elements instead of against them; they
were built on a solid keel, which together with a finely curved bow,
forms the backbone of the vessel. Strafe after strafe was fitted to
keel and stem and these were bolted to each other with iron rivets.
This shell provided strength and flexibility, then, ribs were made
from naturally curved trees were fitted and these provided additional
strength. To increase flexibility, strafes and ribs were bound
together. Lateral support came from cross supports at the waterline,
and solid logs braced the mast.

Our main knowledge of Viking art comes from metal jewelry, the
format of which is modest. The choice of motif is the same as with
woodcarving. The artists were preoccupied with imaginary animals which
were ornamentally carved, twisted and braided together in a tight
asymmetric arabesque, their quality of work was superb. The Viking
raids tapered off around the year 1000. By this time the Vikings had
become Christian, which had a restrictive effect on their urge to
plunder. Denmark, Sweden, and Norway had become separate kingdoms
generally united under single monarchs. Wars wer now steered by the
shifting alliances of the kings. The age of private battles was gone.
Trade relations that were established in the Viking period continued,
and the Nordic countries emerged as part of a Christian Europe.

Anglo-Frisians

Anglo-Frisians

Anglo-Saxons [AD 5-700]
Angles,
Saxon & Jutes
Anglo-Celts,
Near Easterners (E3bs)
or Whomever?
King Vortigern (a British king - whatever "British" meant in that context), according to the Empire's historians, invited Angles to come back and receive land, if they would help to defend "the British" against "the Picts." The Picts? Please.....
Successful Angles sent word back north that good land was available, and that the "the British (i.e. Celts)" were useless as soldiers, according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, AD 449:
"From Anglia, which has ever since remained waste between the Jutes and the Saxons, came the East Angles, the Middle Angles, the Mercians and all of those north of the Humber."
Based on Bede's "Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum", [not the most reliable of sources], external populations were descendants of three Germanic tribes (I doubt the Scandinavians would all be thrilled to be considered "Germanic", but one never knows for sure.
They seem to have a strong sense of nationality, even among themselves. However, those who arrived from the south by sea might have felt differently than those who crossed the continent and mixed for centuries with the Germans, Austrians, Poles and other nationalities.
Not to be too critical of poor Bede, he was working with the information he had in concluding that:
Saxons were from Lower Saxony
Jutes were from the Jutland Peninsula (Danes)
Angles were from Angeln
He wrote that the whole Angle nation came to Britain, leaving their former lands unoccupied sounding like the above reference to land that "remained waste between the Jutes and the Saxons." And that was more likely caused by flooding later than these reports implied.
In fact, a report from Caesar first hand says that lands left vacant were quickly taken up by others, I find it hard to believe that, barring flooding, the land would remained waste and not been immediately taken up by others.
Those who moved in if Caesar was right about there being two kinds of Frisian -determined by good and poor land, those on good land being better soldiers - can be assumed to have been those Frisians on poor land, in poor health, who moved in - and why not?
Place names confirm that other continental tribes were in Britain earlier than thought:
Frisians at Fresham, Freston, and Friston
Flemings at Flempton and Flimby
Swabians at Swaffham; and, perhaps,
Franks at Frankton and Frankley.
There may be a link here with the time at which the Romans quashed the Batavian Revolt. They no doubt took the Frisians and whomever else they could lay hands on and dragged them off to Britain.
They may have bragged that they laid waste the lands. But others did move in - although I can see there being friction between the Danes and Saxons about which of them should have control. Some must have remained as the Romans would likely have only taken men who could fight.
A similar situation may have played itself out when these same peoples joined the Anglo-Frisians to aid Vortigern later. Or, the two events may simply have gotten mixed together in the common mind, and history recorded both in identical terms after the fact.
I doubt any King in Britain was having trouble with the Picts. They were far to the North in Scotland and are now lost in the mists of time. Much of this ancient history, recorded from oral tradition, simply seems ill-informed and confused.
"North of the Humber" is the kingdom of Northumbria, now in north and northeastern England and southern Scotland. Mercia was located in central England and is now the Midlands. There is a map below to help with some of this.
Initially, the Jutes are reported to have gone southwest in Britain. Angeln bears comparison to Jutland. It is situated on a large bight linking the Baltic to the Bay of Kiel (Kieler Bucht or Holsteiner Bucht). Angles were part of the Federation of the Ingaevones, their mystic ancestor and god of fertility being Yngvi.
Germanic scholars argue that notions of nationality based on word games are simplistic, a suspicion confirmed in this case, initially, by archaeology. East and north Britain were settled by women wearing cruciform brooches from Scandinavia, all of Denmark, and Schleswig-Holstein south to the lower Elbe and east to the Oder, as well as coastal Friesland
This was their point of departure when their husbands answered the call. Many of these peoples speak or spoke "Germanic" languages, but this does not confirm that the are Haplogroup G German, in fact, just the opposite. Many are rated as being of the R or I Haplogroups. So genetics has something to add as well ... and it may not agree with cherished historical records.
Recalling the "Pie Map' above, there is some German genetic influence (the brown R1b slices), but it is minimal. I have not seen similar maps for other Haplogroups, so I cannot comment with authority about German genetic influence there. But "I" is generally considered Norse, not G, which is German. E3b, likely came with the Romans, but it's anyone's guess right now.
South central Britain was settled by women wearing the saucer brooch of Lower Saxony, the south side of the lower Elbe, then among the Franks, up the Rhine and along the coast to the mouth of the Seine.
Angeln history is subsumed within that of Southern Jutland or Schleswig (Danish: Slesvig) and, until the 19th century, it belonged to Denmark. If anything, the Angles and Jutes were Danish or near Danish, located in the northwest, near the Saxons and Frisians.
Their genetic footprint has left the British confused. The modern British like to think of themselves as Anglo-Saxon and believe that they replaced the indigenous Celts. They are mistaken.
Not only are many of them Celts (perish the thought), but they took quite a knock from the Danes and Normans, and are even now ruled by a Germanic Monarchy. Many of "the upper crust" refuse DNA tests for a reason. They are more than a little unsure about who and what they are, and afraid to find out!

Viking By Blood

Vikings and Scandinavian History Though notorious for their fearsome Viking raids, Scandinavians were also farmers and craftsmen. Find out more about this complex society that began in Norway, Sweden and Denmark and spread to Iceland, Greenland, Russia, much of Europe and even the Americas. Vikings in America The latest evidence confirms that Scandinavians reached the North American continent almost 500 years before Columbus. Find out where they came from, how they traveled, what they did in America and how long they stayed.


Introduction to the Viking Age From the time of the first known raids in Lindisfarne in 793 until the Battle of Stanford Bridge in 1066 the Vikings were the most powerful and influencial people of northern Europe. With an extensive trade from western Europe to the Black Sea they had made themselves known. They settled in many places of Europe, and were the people who helped form what today is Russia. They have left marks in almast every country in Europe and if you travel the Great Britain you will encounter names of Villages and Streets that will sound Norse. The Vikings were a great influence from Asia to America for about 200 years. So who were these people of the North and why did they make such an impact on their surrounding? There are many theories on why so many people left Scandinavia during the Viking age to travel and settle in different parts of the continent. One theory is that there were a lot of people inhabiting the land and the Kings own most of it. That limited the freedom for the regular farmer to find his own piece of land were he could be his own master. The tension of being limited by rules and regulation as well as deficiencies from lack of food etc. was probably a major reason to the movements of people. Another theory is that the Vikings were just greedy and driven by oppertunism they took advantage of the instability of the rest of Europe to take over land and other properties. The Vikings The Vikings came from the Scandinavian countries (Sweden, Norway and Denmark). Later they settled on Island, Great Britain, Ireland, French and Russia. The Vikings that left Norway and Denmark moved to the south towards the British Isles and Ireland whereas the Swedish Vikings mainly traveled east into Russia and down Volga to the Black Sea and Constantinople. Vikings from Norway and Denmark colonized the Shetlands and Orkneys, the Isle of Man and conquered three of Englands four kingdoms. They made Ireland a trading base and controlled many ports along the cost. They didn't conquer the Celtic land but instead the Celts and the Vikings had a relationship that allowed the two cultures to mix and cooperate. The longer the Viking Age past the moe integrated these two cultures became. York is another city that has been under great Viking influence. As a matter of fact they made York, which they called Jorvik, a trade center. The city grew a lot under the Vikings influence. Today York has a center dedicated to Viking research as a result of all the Viking Age findings that have been excavated there. One of the most fascinating Viking Age findings are from York, the main finding is the village that was covered by mud. Visit their website.

Douglas Thompson Fitzwilliam N.H. D.N.A.

The Roche D.N.A. Roche Family Histrory, Posted By Douglas Thompson This is the Roche side of My Family .

Haplogroup R - Haplotype R-U106*


R1b Migratory Map - East to West

A Haplogroup is a population of varying size descended from a common ancestor, as evidenced by specific mutations. Haplogroups are NOT cultural, although a haplogroup can be strongly represented by a cultural population.
The Y Chromosome Consortium (YCC) has assigned hierarchical alphanumeric labels which can be presented graphically in the form of a haplogroup tree. It is shown in a compressed version below.

People must remember that the Ice Age (the Last Glacial Maximum) muddied the waters when it comes to developing an entirely orderly evolution within our Haplotype. Haplogroup R, spawned R1a, R1b, and Rb2. R1b, before the Ice Age, is thought to have existed in four regional variants :

Russian-Baltic
North-Sea Baltic
Alpine-South German, and
Atlantic
In Europe, R1b was thought to have entered from the east as pre-historic hunter-gatherers. They migrated along rivers, coastlines and high ground to the Baltic, Med and Atlantic. All were thought to have lived originally in Russia near the Volga River, migrating in two tranches, west to the Russian-Baltic area and southwest to the Black Sea and South Germany.

Eventually the Russian Baltic evolved into North Sea Baltic and the South Germanic evolved into the Atlantic variants. The "names" evolved from mutations that occurred at a given time in one tiny section of male DNA called the 390 locus. But don't worry about that sort of thing, unless you are a scientist or geneticist.

It is felt that the original R1b had a value of 24 at DYS 390. Archaeological findings were matched to the genetic changes at 390, and they came up with the following ages for each of the four variants:

Russian-Baltic -- 24-28,000 years
North-Sea Baltic -- 21-25,000
Alpine-South German -- 18-22,000, and
Atlantic -- 14-18,000
We have 23 at 390, and it was found to a greater or lesser degree in the four variants:

Russian-Baltic -- 23%
North Sea-Baltic -- 38%
Alpine-South German -- 30%, and
Atlantic -- 18%
So the quick and dirty conclusion would be that we are North-Sea Baltic, and we might be, but R1b changes or evolves, differentiating and expanding in reverse, with the least differences in the older variants.

That is reflected in the Map at the Top of the page. It implies that we came west and, like many in R1b headed for shelter during the Ice Age for the Iberian Peninsula (which scientists call a Refugium). As we will see in a moment, things are not so straightforward. In fact, R1b sheltered in two places - one Iberia, and two, the south east.

All haplogroups [A to T] work in much the same way, except that timelines vary - and we are speaking here of male, not female - y not mt DNA. This all falls under the domain of Molecular Genealogy. Another term for it is "Anthrogenealogy".

I will try to avoid too much scientific detail; the specifics of ever-changing science of genetics are daunting that way madness lies!

The map below will give you an idea of what I mean consider that each of the labeled groups [A to T] has 20 or more subsets, and you will understand why I must stay close to our own (R1b). But it does serve by way of example.

As a haplotype within the R1b haplogroup, R-U106* is considered to have mutated into existence during or near the end of the the Ice Age perhaps in northwestern Europe, not the Iberian Peninsula. Assuming we started out as R (Paleolithic Man: 30,000 BC), you can see below that R1b split from R, and each went in opposite directions.


Note: Haplogroup R is identified by eight markers: M207, M306, P224, P227, P229, P232, P280, and P285 plus 42 mutations identifying 28 subclades. The majority of European Y DNA belongs to R. [if you already tested as R, ignore the foregoing].
Major Changes - 2008: R is known to have derived from M207; P297 combines M73 and M269 into R1b1b. M269 joins the M37, M65, M153, SRY2627, M222, P66, U106, and U152 to become R1b1b2. U152 joins the R-M126 and R-M160 lineages, as well as U152 to form R1b1b2h.

Caveats: Additional changes to R1a1 (indo-European) may result as testing of M56, M157, M64.2 and PK5 on P98(+). M18 and M335 have not been tested on P297(+) because of the absence of positive controls. Thus, the branches defined by M18 and M335 might descend from P297(+).

Three copies of the P25 lie within palindromic repeats with mutations at P25, and undergo reversion by gene conversion (translation - Mother Nature's mistakes and the body's sometimes ineffective attempts to repair them) require that this marker be used in conjunction with P297.

[A Marker is simply an identifiable location on a chromosome that varies from person to person, whose genetic inheritance can be tested. It is used with allele values (like numbers on a BINGO card) to help describe an man's haplotype.

Marker labels, such as M173 or DYS388, have no real meaning - they are IDs arbitrarily assigned to pieces of genetic tissue, so that everyone is talking about the same thing when using the marker or ID - like a name].


We have been recently confirmed by FTDNA as haplotype:
R1b1b2a1a4* or R-U106*

FTDNA - Nov/08

But the information above, plus the [*] indicates that there may be more testing ahead, tiny refinements to findings by researchers, in our genetic data that will confirm that designation or modify it slightly within a range.
We are fine to a point. They looked for L1-; L48+; M37; M65; M153; SRY2627; M222; P66; & U152 - and we didn't have them. But we had M269 (an important link); plus M173; M207; M343; U106 & P25 - the sometimes wonky one with palindromic repeats - and, if you check the chart below, you will see how some of these alphanumeric IDs take you one way and others another.

The green line on the chart traces how scientists (geneticists at FTDNA) found us to have evolved via mutation. The chart is clear and effective (I hope) in illustrating how Molecular Genealogy or GenoGenealogy works.

They followed the labeled sequence of mutations in our DNA samples back until there are no other parts that could be identified as proven (for now). Thus a mutation is a permanent structural alteration or change in a DNA sequence. Mutations in Y DNA - which, by the way is in the Y chromosome, and can be passed only by a male to his sons and through them to other male descendents.

Y DNA can be tested to determine both the male haplotype and haplogroup because it is passed on to all male descendants until another mutation occurs, and the process starts all over again with a new branch (haplotype) of the genetic line. This does not mean the death of the old one of course. Many twigs can sprout on many branches of many trees.

The paternal "Line of Descent" created - a direct line of descent from ancestral father to son to son to son - along an all male line - is what is traced in Y DNA testing. Below, you see a phylogenetic or Y DNA tree: a diagram showing our (and other) evolutionary lineage/s within our Haplogroup, R1b:

Our Latest R Grouping>
If you have been tested R1b but your results are different alpha-numerically, you can follow your own family's R1b development on the same chart. Your end point will vary as the individual parts vary and are, therefore, named differently.

Of course, the chart is not really for immediate family. It only goes to the branches. A branch can have many twigs. But I will be delighted to find my ancestral group (and, therefore, a place or places on the planet). If I don't find family, because they haven't tested, I will still consider this to have been a worthwhile exercise.

As for actual family, the trick lies in finding them, talking them into a test, and then putting up with them - in some cases :-) You might find them quite by accident as a result of your Y DNA results, but with so many of our surname, that would be almost like winning a lotto.

Quite a trick, but some, amazingly, have done it; and they have even had family reunions among living descendents of a common male ancestor. We are closing in on our origins. There was, given our location, a lot of interaction between us and our (Viking) neighbours, some violent, and some, hopefully, peaceful. Now, it would be terrific to be either Iberian or Northern R1b. It would mean that we are likely Anglo-Frisian (continental) or Celtic (insular) and, therefore, associated with either or two well known and document cultures.

They would be the post-Ice Age Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture/s of the Frisians taken to Britain by the Romans in AD 70 or with the Aurignacian peoples who did the amazing art work in the caves at Lascaux, France; Altimira, Northern Spain; or the open-air Fox Coa in Portugal about 12,000 years ago.

The latter re-populated western Europe from Iberia to Scandinavia after the Ice Age (reference Niall of the Nine Hostages). The former are assumed to have sheltered to the southeast (Anatolia and the Middle East).

They are sometimes found near Jewish populations, including Britain, leading some to believe they were brought from the southeast by the Romans. However, that also occurred with the Friesians and their allies in the northwest when they almost defeated Rome in AD 69 (more below), then located a little less to the northwest.

Eventually there was a country, Frisia, next to the Danish border, extending south. This means they were likely at least involved with the Corded-Ware/Single-Grave Culture/s - Pagans - who had Sagas and other beliefs, similar to those of the Scandinavians. They had their own gods and mythologies, perfectly suited to them and their way of life.

On them were based a body of law and a runic alphabet. Thus, there is some uncertainty about migratory patterns. You will see this in the lighter lines on the map at the very beginning of this section.

So we have gone deep into the composition and origin of our yDNA - it has told us where to look - in times past - for our ancestors - whether Roaches by then - or not. Genes came well before surnames.




It might be helpful to view a broader canvas (we are in red on the map - left). Because each group can be associated with vast areas, and there has been an intermingling of races in Europe, tests have divided haplogroups into haplotypes and even smaller divisions.
Large numbers of participants will be needed to allow elaboration of these patterns. In our case, for example, we are close to R1b1c9* or, with later nomenclature, R1b1b2g*.

Finally, the University of Arizona, tried to put a permanent name on the haplotype (admitting that it might be difficult to maintain consistency in future). But in, 2008 we had a new designation - one with even a short-hand version for convenience.

Translation R1b1c9 (S21), recently discovered by EthnoAncestry, appears to be the most common early marker for R1b1c. This group is most common in Frisia (now the Netherlands) and, in general, the predominant R1b Frisian haplogroup.

It may have originated towards the end of the last ice age, c 7000 BC, in northwestern Europe. It has several subgroups, each identified. We are neither with 100% certainty, thus R1b1c9*; R1b1b2g*; and for now R1b1b2a1a4* (R-U106*, short-form).

History had dubbed us Flemish, but I must admit, NW Europe feels like a better fit. Being up there after the Ice Age with Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes matches our temprament. Also, the Flemish are generally not big men; we have been, comparitively over the centuries, dominant in physical size. If there is a war, you want us on your side! Like the four associated groups, we can fight! The [*] means there is yet another marker or mutation to be found before we will know exactly where we fit between Angles and Frisians. Europeans insist we are Frisian, but the Americans want better science. One big difference is that the latter use more markers - 12-67 versus 6-8-12-20.

EthnoAncestry decided we were most common in Frisia (now the Netherlands) and, in general, the predominant R1b Frisian haplogroup. The same group is found in the English Midlands in much higher number than in Ireland.

Soon FTDNA came onside and filled out the designation - Anglo-Frisian - which presumably includes Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Frisians - and certainly fits dominant characteristics. While I have a near match in Ireland and another in the Midlands, the European, Irish and Flemish Modals decided it for me. We are not within a country mile of either.

The one significant difference from the Anglo-Frisians to the North (also found in Jutland as Jutes (Danes), I can explain - looking in the historic record. There is good reason for our haplotype, once you throw in the Anglos with the Frisiens, possibly slightly different genetically, but either together or feeling they are one even when separate today.

Accepting that Frisians from the North and the Netherlands (the modern Benelux Federation) is easy when you understand that they migrated south by land in AD 250. So there is a real admixture of continental R1bs in northern Germany, western Europe and the English Midlands.

They first arrived in the Isles compliments of the Romans, were invited back in the 5th century by King Vortigern, may have been with the Danes later, and finally may have even been with the Conqueror, among others from the Benelux Region.

There is certainly no shortage of insular R1bs throughout the Isles (even if you include the Bretons). So our designation fits! Now, it is a simple matter of a few finishing genetic touches - a marker or two - to be confirmed by research.

Iberian Celts simply migrated north by land and sea after the Ice Age. I don't think a final determination in our case will involve a major change, but merely a more narrow geographic focus, more consistent with the average person's (my) understanding of nationalities, borders, genealogy and history.

We are either Anglo-Frisian, or something between one or the other by a genetic hair's breadth.

I am quite happy to wait - FTDNA has competent geneticists, were in this business early and have gone above and beyond for me on several occasions. If you are one of the surname Roache (by any of a multitude of spellings in many languages, living and dead, why not see discover where you belong.

Douglas Thompson of Fitzwilliam N.H.

Hello Thompson's, I am Douglas Thompson
My Family was from Fitzwilliam N.H. 1960's - Date
some in Florida . Thompson is a Viking name ,N.W. Europe at the last Ice age or the (the Last Glacial Maximum) People must remember that the Ice Age (the Last Glacial Maximum) muddied the waters when it comes to developing an entirely orderly evolution within our Haplotype.On the Roche side of my Family is Haplogroup R, spawned R1a, R1b, and Rb2. R1b, before the Ice Age, is thought to have existed in four regional variants :

Russian-Baltic
North-Sea Baltic
Alpine-South German, and
Atlantic
In Europe, R1b was thought to have entered from the east as pre-historic hunter-gatherers. They migrated along rivers, coastlines and high ground to the Baltic, Med and Atlantic. All were thought to have lived originally in Russia near the Volga River, migrating in two tranches, west to the Russian-Baltic area and southwest to the Black Sea and South Germany.
A Haplogroup is a population of varying size descended from a common ancestor, as evidenced by specific mutations. Haplogroups are NOT cultural, although a haplogroup can be strongly represented by a cultural population.

Starting with myself hear are 5 gen.Back Douglas John < John Willy < Harry < Samuel < Abraham

Douglas Thompson

fitzwilliam n.h. thompsons

Looking for Thompson's Herbie e. Thompson st.Augasine Fl., Lilly Thompson , George Thompson, Phillis Thompson Sabastain,Jannice Thompson All Brothr's of my Father John Willie Thompson Born in Whitingsville mass.
Thank you all if you have info.
Douglas Thompson
Jaxcskonville Florida U.S.A.
cell 904-662-1943 24-7
Also looking for Roche's present or past if you can help call me
the name in the Roche family are all in my family tree at (my heretige)
under thompson(douglas john-1965)=thompson,s are also in it!

1 comment(s), latest 4 years, 10 months ago

fitzwilliam n.h. thompsons

Looking for Thompson's Herbie e. Thompson st.Augasine Fl., Lilly Thompson , George Thompson, Phillis Thompson Sabastain,Jannice Thompson All Brothr's of my Father John Willie Thompson Born in Whitingsville mass.
Thank you all if you have info.
Douglas Thompson
cell 904-662-1943 24-7

Found Him ~