kerbent on Family Tree Circles
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Thomas CRUMP was born on 22nd November 1813 and baptised a month later on 2nd January 1814 Church of England, Goudhurst, Kent. He was the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Crump late a servant of Mr W. Mynn, the father was listed as William Mynn Jnr a farmer, both were from the parish.
William Mynn Jnr did not marry Elizabeth, when Thomas was christened Elizabeth was referred to as the late a servant of W. Mynn which indicates that she was no longer working for the family. It appears that William married Susannah Heath on 17 Dec 1825 Kensington and Chelsea, Middlesex, England
A few years after Thomas christening Ann Crump marries William Startup, according to the IGI William Startup and an Ann Crump on the 10 Feb 1816 in Tudeley, Kent, England.
Now the hunt is on to find out more about Thomas' mother and father. Any one have any helpful hints?
After much searching I have now located Thomas Crump's first wife.
Thomas Crump died on the 13 Apr 1874 in Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia. On his death certificate it was stated that he was born in Kent, England and had been living for 32 year in Victoria .
Based on time lived in Victoria he would have arrived around 1841/2. His death certificate also stated that he had been married twice although the name of his first wife was not listed, as particulars were not known at the time.
The only Thomas Crump arriving in Australia in 1841/2 was on the Marquis of Hasting on 4 February 1841, listed as being married and was accompanied by his wife Rebecca Crump. On Rebeccas record it was listed that she was formerly known as Underhill presumably her maiden name as her fathers surname is also given as an Underhill.
According to the Maidstone church records there was a marriage between a Thomas Crump and a Rebecca Underhill on the 15 Nov 1834 .
Seven years later that couple were migrating to Australia, seven years after arriving Rebecca died on 28 Aug 1848 in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. There appears to have been no English or Australian born children to the couple, according to Rebecca's migration papers her state of bodily health was rather delicate. Both were Wesleyan Methodists.
Two years later Thomas married Selina Wheeler on 30 Dec 1850 in the Weslyan Church, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Thomas JACKA and Elizabeth GILBERT orignally from St Buryan, & then relocated to St Sithney, Cornwall
Thomas Jacka and Elizabeth Gilbert are my 5 x great grandparents
Thomas Jacka was christened on 15 Aug 1733 and married in 1760 to Elizabeth Gilbert, both events took place.in St Buryan.
Elizabeth Gilbert was born 9 July 1732 in St Buryan (sources: IGI, collaborated by The Jelbert Society in Thomas Gilbart (Morvah & St Buryan), this assertion is support by the custom of the day that marriages took place in the brides's church.
Thomas and Elizabeth are both buried in St Erth (source: Dees St Erth, Cornwall, UK Genealogy Page)). It is thought that Thomass father, John Jacka, originally came from St Erth so perhaps this is why Thomas returned there, before he died, perhaps there was some family connection there that drew him back.
Establishing the links between different family members
Transcription of the Probate/Death Duty Register entry for Thomas Jacka
(Source Citation: IR 26/339, EXETER: Cornwall Archdeaconry, Repository The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU)
(Note this is not the original will, but instead a copy made by the clerk.(source:CORNISH PROBATE RECORDS))
Date of the Probate or Admin & Sum Sworn
- 1796, May 4th, Under £300
Name and description of Testator or Intestate
-Thomas Jacka of St Erth, Yeoman
Names & places of Abode of the Exeors or Administrators
John, Joseph & James Jacka, Residuary Legatees, sons of John Jacka, The remainder of his goods
Auxiliary Legatees -
- Abraham Jacka, son, One hundred Pounds
- Elizabeth Jacka, Daughter, Fifty Pounds
- Ann Jacka, Daughter, Fifty Pounds
(Note - A 'yeoman' described as such in a nineteenth century census or directory was someone who owned his own land. This could be a big or a small landowner, especially when the term is used in a directory, but the census might more usually describe a big landowner as a 'landed proprietor'. A yeoman might in other contexts be described as a 'gentleman'source:- Index of Old Occupations)
All the children (see list below) except the two eldest sons, Thomas and William, are included in the Will. Both sons had already married so perhaps their father had already given them their inheritance while he was still alive?
Cornish Will Abstract for Thomas Jacka, St Erth yeoman
written - 04-Apr 1796
proved - 04-May 1796
pages - 421/422
son - Abraham
daughters - Elizth, Ann Jacka
3 sons - John, Joseph, James
witnesses - Thomas Ellis, James Otey
(Source:- Cornish Will Abstracts 1793 1797, Microfilm #0090202, Barons Morishe Reference found on.Dees St Erth, Cornwall, UK Genealogy Page))
Note yet to be sighted, may contain further information that maybe of interest
Thomas Jacka and Elizabeth Gilberts children:
1. Thos (Thomas) JACKA 1760-1833) who married Anna Moyse in 1790
2. William JACKA (1763- ?) who married Margaret Wood in 1790
3. John JACKA (1764- ?) who married Mary Lambrick in 1800
4. Elizabeth JACKKA 1766-1849) who married William Jelbart in 1800
5. Abraham JACKA 1769- ?)married ?
6. Joseph JACKA (1771- ?) who married Charity Berryman in 1798
7. James JACCKA (1774- ?) who married Eleanor Hammill in 1800
8. Ann JACKA (1777- ?)
Interested in making contact with anyone also researching the Jacka and/or Gilbert names in Cornwall.
On John Bassetts death certificate (died in Eaglehawk, Victoria, Australia) in 1868 his age was 80 and his parents were William Bassett and Mary Unknown. Therefore we deducted that he must have been born in circa 1788.
Research turned up a John Bassett christened 27 March 1788, St Izzey, Cornwall his parents were William Bassett and Mary Symons. At this point we felt very excited that we had found our John. However, after further research a descendant was found in Roma, Queensland, Australia who refuted our claim of kinship in the nicest way possible.
The following information was forwarded for us to digest:-
John Bassett [son of William Bassett (1761-1831) & Mary Symons (1767-1832)] Christened 27 Mar 1788 in St Izzy, Cornwall who died 7th Oct 1851 in Fairwater House, Taunton Somerset.John was a lunatic confined to Fairwater House Lunatic Asylum for many years admitted July 1828 having previously been a patient at a similar establishment near Tauton, Fivehead House since 25 Oct 1822.This was a wholesale move and transfer of license from the one to the other asylum by the same surgeon/owner. Private patient. Cause of death peritonitis and effusion in the chest (Somerset RO 1/5/87).
This therefore couldn't be the John Bassett who married Martha Carbis as he died in England in 1851 whereas our John died in Eaglehawk, Victoria, Australia in 1868
So it was back to the drawing board, until a second promising John Bassett was unearthed, who was also born in Madron
John Bassett christened 5 September 1790, Madron, Cornwall Unfortunately only one parent is given, the father, in the Madron Parish records see below
"5 Sep 1790 John s/o William Bassett, pauper at Madron"
On John Bassett's death certificate1 in 1868 his father is listed as William, a farmer, and his mother is listed as Mary unknown, a farmers wife.
Another conundrum perhaps John's parents had in the past been farmer but had become paupers just before John was born?
It would seem highly likely that the descendants in Australia had no clear memory of who John's parents were, or what their occupations were. Australia is a long way away and death certificates are not the most reliable source of information.
So until someone comes along to prove something different I've decided to lay claim to this John, at least for the momment.
There are two Mary Ebbotts in the 1841 Census, and both are living with relations. I have managed to solve the identity of one of them but the other who must somehow be related is a complete mystery to me, Im sure shes related but I cant work out how, I am presuming that Ebbott is her married but that leaves me none the wiser. Anyone know who Mary Ebbott who is living in the with the Bone family below is? Fro further detail see below:-
The mystery Mary
Name: Mary Ebbott, Age: 55, Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Street Address: Treludick, Egloskerry, Cornwall
1. John Bone, 60, Farmer, Cornwall (father of Sarah Bone who married John Ebbott born 1808)
2. William Bone, 20, Cornwall
3. Julias Bone, 20, Cornwall
4. Jane Bone, 25,Cornwall
5. John Coram, 15,Cornwall
6. Ann Congdon, 15, Female Servant, Cornwall
7. Henry Coram 3, Cornwall
8. Elizabeth Woof, 35, Cornwall
9. Fanny Woof, 4 Mo, Cornwall
10. Richard Woof, 10, Ag Labourer, Cornwall
11. Walter Pearse, 10, Ag Labourer, Cornwall
12. Mary Ebbott, 55, Cornwall (not sure who this Mary Ebbott)
13. Sarah Pearse, 30, Female Servant, Cornwall
(Piece: HO107/134/1 )
My Ancestor Mary Ebbott nee Ferrett
The Ebbott family living in Trerimince, Tresmeer, Cornwall
1. Philip Ebbott,65, Farmer, Cornwall
2. Mary Ebbott, 55, Cornwall, (presumably Phillips wife)
3. Wilmit Ebbott, 85, Independent, Cornwall (Philipss mother)
4. Henry Ebbott, 20, Tailor, Cornwall
5. Gregory Ebbott, 20, Cornwall
6. William Ebbott, 11, Cornwall
7. William Congdon, 20, M.S, Cornwall
8. William Cory, 15, M.S, Cornwall
9. John Reed, 11, M.S, Cornwall
10. Elisabeth French, 15, F.S, Cornwall
11. Mary A Rundle, 20, F.S, Cornwall
12. Henry Harris, 7, M.S, Cornwall
Place: Alternon Tresmeer
1. Philip EBBOTT, Head, M, 76, Retired Farmer, Cornwall - Tresmeer
2. Mary EBBOTT, Wife, 68, Cornwall - Treneglos
3. William EBBOTT, Son , 21, Farm Servant, Cornwall - Tresmeer
When doing research for my illusive Crump Ancestors, I thought I had finally located my mysterious x3gr Grandfather alas after considerable delving I discovered that he couldn't have be mine. Close but not close enough.
Both Thomas Crumps came to Australia around the early 1840s,
Thomas Crump(1) my ancestor
Thomas Crump(2) the guy who I originally thought might have been my ancestor -Thomas Crump(1)
Both Thomas' were born in in the early between 1800s, within 3 years of each other.
Thomas Crump(1) c1815
Thomas Crump(2) 1818
Both Thomas' were out of general English population by early 1840s:-
Thomas Crump(1) according to his death certificate he had been in Victoria Australia for 32 years before he died, making his arrival date to Victoria in 1842
*the first positive record of Thomas in the Port Phillip District and was found in the 1845/46, in the LaTrobe Ward of the Melbourne Rate Books. He was the owner of a 4 roomed house with a Kitchen, Stable and Yard.
*There has been some speculation that may have immigrated on the Marquis of Hasting on 11 Oct 1840. arrived Sydney 4 February 1841 under Captain T.A Carr left Plymouth 11/10/1840, however nothing has been confirmed yet)
Thomas Crump(2) was convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 19/10/1840 of Larceny: Stealing a roll of flannel at the age of 22 and was sentenced to 7 years. He spent 1 year, 5 months on a Hulk. Before he was transported to Tasmania in Australia on the Candahar left Portsmouth on the on the 17/3/1842 and arrived in Van Demons Land on 21 July 1842
My original thought was that it could be possible that possible that Thomas Crump(1) & (2) were the same person and that Thomas had been convicted in England and transported to Van Demon's Land and then somehow traveled to Victoria were he married my 3x great grandmother Selina Wheeler.
Thomas Crump(2) married Lydia Johnson and they were married on the 6 April 1846 (Yr 1846, Reg#2321) in Hobart. This is still consistent with the possibility that Thomas (1) & (2) were the same person as on Thomas Crump(1)'s death certificate it stated that details of his first wife were unknown, therefore when Thomas (1) remarried in 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, I initially thought that Lydia Johnson may have died between 1847 and 1850, making Selina Wheeler his second wife.
It wasn't until I found that Thomas Crump(2) died in 1866 according to an inquest held in Hobart on 7 Nov 1866, was accidentally killed, that I knew he could not be my Thomas(1) who did died until 1874 in Victoria, Australia.
Birth c 1818, his native place of origin was listed as Bethnal Green, London
Thomas was convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 19/10/1840 of Larceny: Stealing a roll of flannel at the age of 22 and was sentenced to 7 years.
He spent 1 year, 5 months on a Hulk. In the records only one family was mentioned an uncle whose name was John.
He was transport to Tasmania on the Candahar left Portsmouth on the on the 17/3/1842 and arrived in Van Demons Land on 21 July 1842
August 1842 he spent his probation in a Station gang for seven months at Lovely Banks, which is north of Hobart on what is now known as the Midlands Highway.
He then moved to the Prisoner's Barracks where on the 19/5/1843 he was found to be neglecting his work and as punishment he was given 6 days solitary & then on the 17/6/1843 in the Probation Prisoners' Barracks where once again he neglected his work as punishment he was given two months hard labor on the roads presumably near Browns River.
He returned to the Prisoner's Barracks on and onto various work assignments in Sandy Bay, Hobart, & Bridgewater and then back to Hobart where on 4/11/1844 in Abbott, Hobart he was charged with misconduct in resisting a constable in the execution of his duty he was put in solitary for 14 days.
He was granted permission to marry Lydia Johnson and they were married on the 6 April 1846 (Yr 1846, Reg#2321) in Hobart.
Together they had 6 children
Thomas Henry Crump born 12 Dec 1846 (Yr1846, reg#2857)
John Walter Crump Born9 Oct 1848 (Yr1848, reg#3285) (died 22/11/1897)
1. Lucy Lydia Crump born 14 Apr 1851 (Yr1851, reg#3842)
2. Eliza Crump born 4 May 1853 (Yr 1853, reg#1853) (died 4/5/1853)
3. Eliza Crump born 3 May 1853 (Yr 1853, Reg#2249)
4. William Crump born 6 Apr 1854 (Yr1854, reg#4340)
He received his first ticket of freedom on the 7/7/1846 and his Free Certificate on the 19/10/1847
Inquest held on body in Hobart on 7 Nov 1866, verdict accidentally killed. Crime report 11 January 1867
In contrast my ancestor Thomas Crump was born in 1815 - , Kent, England and died in 13 Apr 1874 Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia. Immigrated: arriving in Victoria in, 1842. according to his death certificate. He married twice, details of his first wife are unknown.
His second wife however was Selina Wheeler (Abt 1834 - 24 Jul 1899) married on 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, , Victoria, Australia
their children were:
1. William Crump (1851-1866)
2. Theophilus Crump (1853-1930)
3. Albert Crump (Abt 1855- )
4. Walter Crump (Abt 1862-1923)
5. Christina Crump (Abt 1864-1882)
6. Thomas Crump (1866-1948)
I have not yet been able to find any reference to any of Thomas' family of origin making it very hard to go back any further.
Still looking for the puzzle pieces
Thomas Jacka is my 5 x great grandfather, so I was very excited when I found the listing of his will in the A2A archives. But now I realise locating the will is one thing but understanding is entirely another. If any one can shed any light on the context and meaning of the will that would be great. Below is a summary of my musings so far.
Transcription of the will entry
[Source Citation: IR 26/339, EXETER: Cornwall Archdeaconry, Repository The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU]
Date of the Probate or Admin & Sum Sworn - 1796, May 4th, Under £300
Name and description of Testator or Intestate - Thomas Jacka of St Erth, Yeoman
Names & places of Abode of the Exeors or Administrators John, Joseph & James Jacka, Residuary Legatees, sons of John Jacka, The remainder of his goods
Auxiliary Legatees -
- Abraham Jacka, son, One hundred Pounds
- Elizabeth Jacka, Daughter, Fifty Pounds
- Ann Jacka, Daughter, Fifty Pounds
- Wills beginning in 1715, are not original wills, but are instead the copies made by the clerk.CORNISH PROBATE RECORDS
- that of all the children (see list below) the two eldest children Thomas and William are not included in the Probate. Both sons had already married so perhaps their father had already given them their inheritance while he was still alive.
Thomas Jacka and Elizabeth Gilberts children:
1. Thos (Thomas) JACKA1760-1833) who married Anna Moyse in 1790
2. William JACKA(1763- ?) who married Margaret Wood in 1790
3. John JACKA(1764- ?) who married Mary Lambrickin 1800
4. Elizabeth JACKKA1766-1849) who married William Jelbartin 1800
5. Abraham JACKA 1769- ?)married ?
6. Joseph JACKA(1771- ?) who married Charity Berryman in 1798
7. James JACCKA(1774- ?) who married Eleanor Hammillin 1800
8. Ann JACKA(1777- ?)
1. Is 300 pounds a lot of money for this era
2. Is it common for the oldest children to be left off the will etc; and if they could have been given their inheritance before the father died. What laws applied at the time etc, etc.
3. There are three "exeors" or administrators are John, Joseph and James Jacka.
a. Why isn't Abraham one of these, when he gets the biggest amount of money??
b. He doesn't seem to be married as yet I have found no such record?
c. Why aren't Thomas and William administrators? If they had already received their inheritance, couldn't they still have been administrators, especially seeing they are the eldest 2 sons??
d. Are Thomas and William living in the same town - perhaps they are living too far away to be involved?
Walter Todman is my great grandfather. He lived most of life in Victoria, Australia. It appears he was possibly born in Essex, England and migrated to Australia sometime before 1891 when he married Martha Sarah Ellis in the All Saints Church, East St Kilda, Victoria, Australia. He died suddenly of acute heart failure in 1929 at around 63. Who Walter's parents were is not clear
Before his marriage where and who Walter is almost a complete mystery.
However in my quest to find my grandfather I have found two possible Walter Todmans who could in fact be the same person.
In 1890 a Walter Todman registered a patent in NSW for shearing equipment. In 1892 a Walter Todman is getting married to a Martha Sarah Ellis in Victoria.
The question then becomes are these two Walters the same person?
I have been unable to find either of them coming into Australia nor what happened to the Walter Todman who started off in NSW.
My research so far has focused on the following
Establishing where my great grandfather Walter Todman was born through his childrens birth certificates:-
1894 on his daughter's Martha's birth certificate he was born in Essex, England
1895 on his daughter's Ivy Florence birth certificate he was born in Stepheney, London
1897 on his son's Walter Victor birth certificate he was born in Surrey, England
1903 on his daughter's Hazel May's birth certificate he was born in Essex, England
1906 on his son's Lincoln James birth certificate he was born in Essex, England
1908 on his daughter's Charlotte Mary birth certificate he was born in Norfolk, England
1910 on his daughter's Alma Dudley birth certificate he was born in Norfolk, England
On all birth certificates the informant was Martha Todman, mother (& Walter's wife); although the place listed for the fathers (Walter's) birth is always different his age is always consistent with being born in 1866.
A second Walter Todman?
There is a Walter Todman who fathered a Walter Todman in 1890 in New South Wales Australia with a Jane Levey. This Walter Todman was born in Norfolk, England who was 25 years old at the time therefore being born c 1865. A possible match for my Walter. (note Walter and Jane were not married)
The address listed was 9 Bailey Street, Newtown
Pros as to why this might be the same person as my Walter Todman
* the potential birth date of both Walter's is almost the same
* Norfolk is listed as one of the possible birth places of our Walter and is listed as the birth place of this second Walter Todman
* He is also a blacksmith
[We have been unable to find the marriage or death of a Jane Levey or her son Walter Todman in N.S.W or Vic; perhaps Jane did marry or take some elses name and changed her son's name to that surname also?]
[Efforts to try and establish whether these two Walter Todman's are the same person
I have tried to locate the Walter Todman in NSW after/before 1892 particularly at 9 Bailey Street, Newtown. By following his movements I was hoping that we would be able to distinguish between the two Walter's if they weren't the same person
Records that we consulted while in NSW were:-
1. 1891 NSW Census - taken on 16th April 1891. 9 Bailey Street Newtown was uninhabited. This could indicate a number of things, that after Walter Todman son of Jane Levey and Walter Todman was born the couple moved from the house either together or separately.
2. Sydney Sands Postal Directory - 1888 - 1890 did not list a Walter Todman at any location. In 1890 the person living at 9 Bailey Street, Newtown was Miss Mary A Currey. This could mean that Miss Currey lived by herself or was incharge of a boarding house or ??. If the dwelling was a boarding house or similar Walter and/or Jane could have lived there as well. There were Todmans listed in the Directory including a George F Todman and in 1890 a Herman Todman, neither of these were living near Newtown.
3. In the Sands Directories: Sydney and New South Wales, Australia 1891 there was a Walter Todman listed at 9 Bailey Street, Newtown, New South Wales, Australia
3. Electoral Role 1889 - 1890 no Walter Todman listed. In 1889 a George Todman was listed (not mine as far as I can establish)]
A Jane Todman shows up on Sand and Macdougall directory in Coburg, Victoria in 1907 only. This may only be a coincidence - but if this was infact Jane Levy, her son Walter would have been about to turn 18 perhaps she had appeared to collect his share of his inheritance or something.
*why would you call a second son by the same name? i.e. Walter Victor Todman by the same name as your first son?
With a bit of luck someone can give me a clue on where I should head next or perhaps even have further information to help shed light on the mystery.
William Bassett and Jane Mathews were married on the 13 September 1783 in the Madron parish church, and had the following children christened in the same church:-
1. 4 Jan 1784 Anne d/o William Basset at Madron I am not sure what happened to Anne
2. 11 Sep 1785 Francis s/o William Bassett, pauper at Madron was working as a farmer until he became convicted of stealing and was transport to Australia. He was married to Ann Carbis who did not emigrate to Australia. Her husband along with her brother William and father were convicted of stealing and transported to Australia
3. 20 Jan 1788 William s/o William Bassett, pauper at Madron may have been buried on 27 October 1799 in Gulval, Cornwall the entry in the Gulval Church register reads:- October William Bassett of Penzance .. .. .. 27th
4. 5 Sep 1790 John s/o William Bassett, pauper at Madron migrated to Australia in 1852, who married Martha Carbis in in 1812, along with his wife and most of his married children
5. 8 Mar 1792 Mary d/o William Basset, pauper at Madron private baptism" was buried as an infant on 18 February 1793 as a pauper in Madron
6. 9 Mar 1794 Mary d/o William Basset, pauper at Madron
7. 13 Mar 1796 James s/o William Bassett, pauper at Madron was buried as an infant on 16 September 1797 as a pauper in Madron
8. 17 Feb 1798 Hanna d/o William Basset, pauper at Madron private baptism
9. 23 Mar 1800 Jane d/o William Basset at Madron private baptism was buried as a 12 year old on 12 Aug 1810 as a pauper in Madron
The male descendants have been a lot easier to follow up. In 1812 when Francis Bassett with others committed a crime and the scandal went on for about three years, off and on in the newspapers, I know my direct ancestor, John Bassett b.1790 moved out of the area with his wife which is what his surviving sisters may have done.
So at present I would like to discover what happened to
1. Anne Basset christened 1784
2. Mary Basset christened 1792
3. Hanna Bassett christened 1798
I also havent been able to trace the burials and/or deaths of either William Bassett or Jane Bassett nee Matthews who could have both possibly been born around 1762.
Any help would be much appreciated.
David Bogie was the father of Hannah Bogie.
David Bogie and Isable Fyffe
The couple married on 30 Jul 1813 in Dysart, Fife, Scotland,according to the Dysart Old Parish RegisterS both groom and bride were identified as being of this Parish, Dysart. Unfortunately no parents were given for either party.
So now I'm trying to work out who David Bogie's parents were.
The only census that David Bogie appears in the 1841 where he is 50 (his wife was a widow in the 1851 census) which means that he could have been born between 1787 and 1791 as the ages were rounded down to the nearest 5. So he could have been anywhere between 50 and 54 years old and according to the entry in the Church marriage register he came from the parish of Dysart so I assume that he was most likely born there.
Doing a search on the IGI there are three David Bogie's that meet these parameters:-
1.Birth: 25 MAR 1790 , Christening: 28 MAR 1790 St. Andrews And St. Leonards, Fife, Scotland Parents:- DAVID BOGIE & ELIZABETH MCKAY
2. Birth: 15 JAN 1791, Christening: 16 JAN 1791 Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland. Parents: JAMES BOGIE & AGNES ANDERSON
3.Birth: 03 MAY 1792 Leslie, Fife, Scotland Parents: ROBERT BOGGIE & JANNET CURRER
DAvid's occupation was a msaon according to the 1841 census.
Does anyone recongnise these couples and know their families maybe through a process of elimination I can work out who my David Bogies parents are.
Interested to talk to anyone with connections to these families.