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Ferdinand Pietsch - The Leontine

From: http://homepage.mac.com/graememoad/Family/Ships/leontine.htm

last modified 2 February 2006

The Leontine, a three masted ship of 758 tons (nm) was built at Vagesak for D.H. W?tjen & Co. (ownership attributed to K Laun of Bremen in 1848 newspaper reports) and launched on 19 April 1844. She was initially engaged in the packet trade between Bremen and America.

The Leontine is known to have made two voyages to Australia.

Under the command of Wilhelm Johann Ariaans, she departed Bremen on 10th April 1848, stopped at Rio de Janiero and arrived in South Australia on 1st August 1848. She departed on 17 Oct 1848 for Batavia.

The Leontine made a second voyage to SA under the command of captain Ariaans in 1850, leaving Bremen on 10 May 1850 and arriving in Port Adelaide on 13 Aug 1850.

Contents * Brief Description * Passenger List * Newspaper Reports * References * Links * Ship Index

Passenger List

No official passenger list has been located for the Leontine and only cabin passengers are listed in newspaper reports. The list below is based on two lists obtained from the Lutheran Archives, Adelaide, SA [1] and updated lists that appear in the Koenig [8] and Traeger [5] family histories. All are believed to be based on the research undertaken by Carl Heyne. Some ammendments have been made where necessiated by recent information and are noted below [10]. Additional information comes from South Australians 1836-1885[6 ].

The following extract is from Because of their Beliefs[7] (p 62):

"On 20 March 1848 E Delius dispatched the Leontine under Captain Laun from Bremen to South Australia; this ship belonged to the shipowner Watjeu & Co and took fifty people of the Silesian emigration society at Peterswaldau in the administrative region of Breslau. Delius also seems to have dispatched another group in the autumn of 1848, according to the above-mentioned dispute with Hartig. No further details are known of either group."

ARIAANS [1,5,8] Wilhelm Johann

Cabin Passengers
ALEDGER [1,5,8] Mr C L
BUSSNER [1,5,8] Wilhelm
EHMKE [1,5,6,8,9] Herman Heinrich Wilhelm (b 17 Aug 1817) Hanover

Auguste Maria Friedericke (nee BARCKOW) (b 28 Jan 1816)

.....Johann Wilhelm Theodore (b 15 Aug 1842)


.....Maria (2 others?)
HAAK [1,5] Mr J
HABER [1,5,9,12] G
HERING [1,5,8,9] (husband, wife, 3 children)
ISAACHSEN [1,5] Franz Heinrich, wine merchant (b 1825) (also appears as Hans Thomas [8,9])
LAEZOIN [1,5,8,9] Mr R
LAUN [1,5,8.9] Mr E, owner of Leontine
NOLTENIUS [1,5,8,9] Mr C B
SCHLEICHER [1,5,8,9,12] Freiderich Wilhelm


.....Leoniline (1848-1849)
SEGNITZ [1,8,9]
Mr Eduard

SUTTER [1,5,8,9] (husband, wife, 4 children)
SUTTER [1,5,8,9] Miss Maxine
STAKEMANN [1,5,8] Mr H C, German Consul
TUPPEL [1,5,8] Mr H

Steerage Passengers (total 262)
BRANDT [1,5,8] Maria (b 1811)
CRAMER [1,5,8] Heinrich (b 15 Jan 1816) from Pettens
GL?DE [1,5,8] Johan Heinrich (b 1810) from Nantrow, Mecklenburg

Magdaline Johanna Sophia (nee BRANDT) (b 1817)
.....Maria Dorathea (b 1837)

.....Johann Joachim Friederich (b 1840)
.....Sophia Dorathea (b 1841)
GROTH [1,5,6,8] Jacob Heinrich (31) from Wansbech, Hamburg
HABERECHT [1,5,8,12] Johann Carl Gottlieb (b 11 Jan 1815) from Weigelsdorf, Silesia

Susanna Eleonore (nee HERMANN) (b 19 May 1814) Breisnite, SiIesia

.....Johan Carl Gottlob (1840-1910)

.....Wilhelm Friederich (1842-l917)

.....Johan Carl August (1844-1924)

.....Johanne Caroline (1847-1918)
H?BNER[5,8] MW
H?BNER[1,5,8,12] Johann Gottfried, (b 2 Sep 1802) Silesia

Anna Rosina (nee SIEGERT) (b 21 Dec 1808) Groz Tinz Liegnitz, Prussia

.....Anna Christiane (12)

.....Johan Friederich Wilhelm (7)

.....Marie Louise (4)

.....Caroline Anna (2)
JAEKEL[5,11] Carl Erdmann (39, 17 Oct 1808) from Peterswaldau, Silesia

Johanne Eleonore (nee BLEICHER) (39, 17 Jul 1808)

.....Hermann Carl (9, 17 Jul 1838)

.....Auguste Luise (4, 9 August 1843)
KOENIG [1,5,6,8] Johan Christian (b 19 Jun 1823) Gross Rosenburg, Prussia
KOENIG [5,8] brother to above?
LAUNER [5] Johann Karl Gustav from Langenbielau

wife (nee LIHR) 2 children
LEHMANN [1,5,8] Johan Gottlieb (b 18 Sep 1816) Gross Rosenburg, Prussia

Caroline Sophie Amalie (nee LEMM) (b 30 Jul 1826) Potsdam, Prussia
.....Louise Pauline Bertha (b 20 Aug 1846) Potsdam, Prussia
LEMM [1,5,6,8] Christian Friederich Wilhelm (b 20 Oct 1791) Potsdam, Prussia

Sophie Amalie (nee HOFF) (b 12 May 1798)

.....August Heinrich Wilhelm Child (b 3 Jun 1823)

.....Karl August (b 13 Dec 1828)

.....Marie Sophie Amalie (b 6 Nov 1830)

.....Heinrich Gustav (b 15 Apr 1833)
MOLLER [1,5,8,12] Franz Heinrich (b 28 Oct 1805) Altona, Hamburg

Henriette Friedericke Emilie (Nee LIVONIUS) (b 19 Apr 1817) Schwerin

.....Heinrich Wilhelm (11)

.....Gottfried Christian (9)

.....Emilie Henriette Elisabeth (6)

.....Donat Ed.Wilbelm (4)

.....Franz Wilhelm (2)

.....Henriette Dorathea, (infant)
PAULKE [1,5,8] Anna
RATHJEN[1,2,5,8,12] Heinrich Gerhard (b 8 Oct 1823) Tossens, Oldenberg, Holstein.
REHDER [1,5,6,8] Johan Friederich Wilhelm (b ca. 1808) from Hamburg

Johanne Marie Caroline (nee DISSELDORF) (b ca. 1817) 7 children

.....William (b ca. 1836)

.....August (b ca. 1839)

.....Caroline Louise Mathildda (b ca. 1840)

.....Clare Elizabeth Frederike

.....Bertha Margaretha


.....Julia (b ca. 1847)
RIEBE [1,5,8]

SCHACHE [1,5,8,11] Carl Gottlob (b 10 Sept 1794) Grosstienz, Liegnitz, Silesia

Maria Rosina (nee VOGEL) (b 16 Sept 1793)

.....Carl Gottlob (b 18 Dec 1825)

.....Heinrich Wilhelm (b 8 Sep 1828)

.....Ernst Gottfried (b 7 May 1830)

.....Johanne Elisabeth (b 2 Jul 1832)

.....Traugott Wilhelm (b 29 May 1835)
Johann Gottlieb (b 1823, son of Carl Gottlob)

Maria Rosina (nee ULBRICHT)

TRAEGER [1,5,8,12] Carl Gottlieb (48) Weigelsdorf, Reichenbach, Silesia.

Maria Rosina, (nee RUPRECHT) (45)

.....Johanne Helene (b 1830)

.....Carl Gottlieb (15, b 1833)

.....Rosina Helene (15, b 1833)

.....Ernst Gottlieb (12, b 1836)
TRAEGER [1,3,5,8,12] Johann Gottlieb (48, b 30 Jan 1808) Weigelsdorf, Reichenbach, Silesia

Anna Dorathea (nee H?LBERT) (45, b 20 Oct 1812) Pellan

.....Johan Carl Wilhelm (13, b 1835)

.....Johanne Caroline (9, b 1839)
[3,8] .....Ernst August (6, b 22 Sep 1842) Bilvara, Silesia

.....Johanne Dorathea (4, b 1844)

.....Johanne Christianne Louise (1, b 1847)
WARNECKE [5,8,12] Johann Carl Friedrich (b 1814) Hamburg

Contents * Brief Description * Passenger List * Newspaper Reports * References * Links * Ship Index


Newspaper Reports

The South Australian Register
Adelaide - Wednesday 2nd August, 1848

"The German immigrant ship "Leontine" from Bremen

We have the pleasure to greet the arrival of another large batch of German emigrants by the Bremen ship Leontine, the owner of which Mr Laun, formerly commander of the Heerjeebhoy Rustomjee Patel, has brought a quantity of cargo on his own account, consigned, with the vessel, to H. C. Stakemann, Esq., the German Consul. The Leontine left Bremen on the 10th April, and touching at Rio for water and to refresh the emigrants, stopped there for a week, making the passage thence in 50 days. The total number of emigrants is 262, of whom 28 are cabin passengers, and several of them capitalists, who intend to purchase land. Only one adult and two or three newly-born children died on the passage, and we are assured that the emigrants, several of whom are from Prussia, are, as a body, the finest set of people yet landed here from that part of Europe."

The Adelaide Observer Vol. VI-No. 267
Adelaide - Saturday 5th August, 1848

"Shipping Intelligence -


Tuesday August 1st - The ship Leontine, 758 tons, Wm. Ariaans, master, from Bremen, 10th April. Passengers - Mr and Mrs Hering and three children, Mr and Mrs Schleicher and child, Mr and Mrs Sutter and 4 children, Miss Max Sutter, Mr and Mrs Ehmcke and 5 children, Mr G. Haber, Mr C. B. Noltenius, Mr H. T. Isaachsen, Mr E. Segnitz, Mr R. Laczoin, Mr E. Laun in the cabin, and 262 emigrants in steerage."

The Adelaide Observer Vol. VI-No. 267
Adelaide - Saturday 5th August, 1848


On Monday we greeted the arrival of another large batch of German emigrants by the Bremen ship Leontine, the owner of which Mr Laun, formerly commander of the Heerjeebhoy Rustomjee Patel, has brought a quantity of cargo on his own account, consigned, with the vessel, to H. C. Stakemann, Esq., the German Consul.
The Leontine left Bremen on the 10th April, and touching at Rio for water and to refresh the emigrants, stopped there for a week, making the passage thence in 50 days. The total number of emigrants is 262, of whom 28 are cabin passengers, and several of them capitalists, who intend to purchase land. Only one adult and two or three newly-born children died on the passage, and we are assured that the emigrants, several of whom are from Prussia, are, as a body, the finest set of people yet landed here from that part of Europe...."

Contents * Brief Description * Passenger List * Newspaper Reports * References * Links * Ship Index



[1] Reconstructed passenger list from Lutheran Archives, Archer St, North Adelaide, SA (original source unknown)
[2] Paech W.H. Rathjen Family History: 1823-1973, 1973
[3] Traeger P. Chronicles of the Family Graue Graue family Reunion Committee: Adelaide,1981
[4] Sexton, R.T. Shipping Arrivals and Departures South Australia 1627-1950 Gould Books: Ridgehaven, SA, 1990 (p 143)
[5] Traegers from Weigelsdorf to Australia Traeger Family Australia: Willunga, SA, 1998 (pp18-21)
[6] Thomas J (ed.) South Australians 1836-1885 South Australian Genealogy and Heraldry Society: Adelaide, 1990 [vol 1 p 237 (Ehmcke), p 613 (Gloede). 325 (Groth), 445 (Koenig), 533 (Lehmann) 469 (Lemm), vol 2 p 684 (Rehder)]
[7] Iwain, W. Because of Their Beliefs (English translation of Um Glauben willen nach Australien translator and editor Schubert, D,) H Schubert, Highgate, SA, 1985.
[8] Heinrich E. Christian and Karl Koenig and their Descendents in Australia Lutheran Publishing House, Adelaide, 1990 (pp 14-15)
[9] Newspaper report: The Adelaide Observer Vol. VI, No. 267 Adelaide, Saturday 5th August, 1848 (see above).
[10] Three Hinneberg children [Friederich Heinrich (b 4 Sep 1838), Christian Heinrich (b 16 Nov 1843) and Rosina Wilhelmine (b 23 Sep 1845)] that appear in various lists [1, 5, 8] have been removed from the current list as it is now known that they arrived in Victoria on the Malvina(e) Vidal in 1854 with their mother Marie Christiane (nee Lehmann) and stepfather Adolf Carl Theodor Berkholz before travelling to South Australia.
[11] Wayne Knoll - personal communication.
[12] Statten J (ed.) Biographical Index of South Australians 1836-1885 South Australian Genealogy and Heraldry Society: Adelaide, 1886 [vol 2 p 289, 577 (Gloede), p 633 (Haber, Haberecht), p 788 (Hubner), vol 3 p 1125 (Moller), p 1332 (Rathjen) vol 4 p 1439 (Schleicher), p1616, 1617 (Traeger), p 1674 (Warncke)].

Leontine passengers (1848 voyage)
David H Hunter - HISTORY TIMELINES 1801 - 1900 (Carl Gottllob Schache)
JOHN HABERECHT'S FAMILY TREE (Johann Carl Gottlieb Haberecht)
Pasenger list (Di Cummings - Bound for South Australia)

Ship details
Palmer List of Merchant Vessels

Passenger lists (other voyages)
January 1850 Bremen - New Orleans
Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild
13 August 1850 Bremen - Port Adelaide
Passenger list (Di Cummings - Bound for South Australia)
August 1857 Bremen - New York
Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild

Other Imformation
Leontine in Port at San Francisco 1852
The Maritime Heritage Project

Military Record of Arthur Edward Pietsch

Arthur Edward PIETSCH

Regimental number 1779
Religion Church of England
Occupation Farmer
Address Muckleford, Victoria
Marital status Single
Age at embarkation 20
Next of kin Father, Thomas Lewis Pietsch, Muckleford, Vic
Enlistment date 22 February 1916
Date of Enlistment from Nominal Roll 8 February 1916
Rank on enlistment Sapper
Unit name 2nd Pioneer Battalion, Reinforcement 2
AWM Embarkation Roll number 14/14/3
Embarkation details Unit embarked from Melbourne, Victoria, on board HMAT A60 Aeneas on 8 April 1916
Rank from Nominal Roll Sapper
Unit from Nominal Roll 2nd Pioneer Battalion
Fate Returned to Australia 27 August 1917



General Post Office, Adelaide, 28th March, 1849.

ON and after the 2nd day of April next, the latest hour for closing foreign mails will be half*past three o'clock p.m., instead of three as at present.

Newspapers must, as heretofore, he posted one hour before the hour notified for the closing of the the mail for which they are intended, otherwise they cannot be forwarded until the following mail. In all cases the time will be taken from the Post Office clock.



THE following list of Aliens who have, up to this date, taken and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance to Her Majesty is herewith published
for general information.

By his Excellency's command,
Colonial Secretary.

Almers, Louis
Altmann, Adolph
Altmann, Johanu Carl August
Ammann, Emil
Anders, Frans
Armbrecht, Louia
Auricht, Christian
Bartsch, Johann Friedrich
Bartsch, Johann Gottlieb
Behrens, Joachim Heinrich Fiiedrich
Beseler, Carl Friedrich
Beyer, August
Bilefisch, Johannes Adolph Theodor
Birckenhagen, Georg
Blume, Johann Ernst
Bohlaiann, Johann
Bohm. Johann Ernst
Boiletmlorf, Ferdinand Wilhelm
Boldt, Heinrich
Borchard, Andreas
Bormann, Friedrich Diedrich
Buren, George Von
Demares, Piere Germain
Deuteher, Michael
Deutscher, Peter Andreas
Dolling, Johann Gottfried
Domhegger, Caspar Heinrich
Egel, Johann Gottlob
Ekert, Johaun Gottlieb
Engelbrecht, Wilhelm Ludwig
Engerhardr, E luard
Ey, Christian Friedrich Ludwig
Fa'.lbush, August
Faas, Hermann Theodor
Firnhaber, Carl Eduard
Fischer, Johann Friedrich
Fleischer, Johann
Fockel, Jobann Frantz
Frjeberger, Johann Georg
Gebert, Johann Adolph Bernhard
Gladow, Car! Johann Gottfried
Grayenhorat, Heinrich Wilhelm
Grodegut, Hermnnn
Grosser, Adam Hermann Edu*rd
Gruschwitz, Ernest Friedrich
Gutsche, Johaun Wilhelm
Haag, Johan Christian
Hahermann, Birthcld Rohland
Hartung, Wilhelm
Hartwich, Johann Carl
Heinrich; Friodrieh Wilhelm
Hempel, Ed wart
Hentseke, j'.han.n Christian
Hentsoke, Jol.jnn Gottlieb
Hermann, Leopold
Heuslor, Willielm
Hirte, Johann Gouiieb
Hoopner, Johann Heinrich
Huff, Johunn
Humbsch, Johann Carl
Jentsch, Johimj Christian
Jentsdi, Johann Frii-diK'hTraugott
Jeschie, Joha.m Pk-iu'gott
Jiirsz, Heinrich Johaun Joachim
Jordan, Franz
Juttner, Franz
Kahle, Carl Gottlieb
Kauffmann, Georg Ferdiuand
Keller, Carl Friedrich
Kiewe, Gottfried
Kiiebel, Johann Wilhelm
Klachn, Friedrich August Heinrioh
Klau, Carl Jonathan
Kleinitz, Wilhelm
Knispel, Johann Gottfried
Kohne, Johann Heinrich Conrad
Koll, Gottfried
Kolwes, Franz Heinrich Carl
Korff, Johann
Kornhardt, Karl
Krausse, Gottfried
Krig, Carl Ferdinand
Kriiuer, Ernst Friedrich
Kroll, Johann
Kruschel, Johann Gottfried
Kuchel, Johan Gottfried Erdmann
Kuhnel, Gottfried
Kusi;h, Peter Ludwig Wiihslm
Lamcken, Johann Behrend
Lange, Friedrich Gotthilf
Lange, Gottlieb
Liebe, Gottfried
Liebelt, Johann Christoph
Liebelt, Johann Gottlieb
Linde, Hakea
Lindener, Johann Gottlob
M&ljrmann, Peter Diedrich
M*y, Heinricb Julius Wilhelm
Magnus, Eduard
Majerus, Frederick
Menkens, Johann Herrmann
Meyer, Heinrich Wilbelm
Meyer, Heinrich Wilhelm Elias
Mibus, Johann
Msndel, August Friedricb
MUUer, Heinrich Daniel
N ssen, George
N?V?el, Heinrich
Naske, Johann Gottlieb
Neumann, Ferdinand Friedrick
Neumann, Johann Adp}ph FrUdricfa
Niehus, Matthes
Niemann, Friedrich August
Niemann, Johann Hinrich
Niemano, Ernst
Nitscke, Georg Friedrich
No t, Heinrich Herrmann Antou
Noske, Samuel
Offe, Claus Martin Johann
Ortloff, Johann Friedrich
P?ech, Johann Friedrich Wilhelm
Paech, Johann August
Pahl, Peter
Panlke, Traugott
Peters, Jurgen Nocolaus
Petr^ss. Johann Gottlieb
PfeifTer, Johann Christian
Piefke, Gottfried
Pietsch, Ferdinand August
Pilz, Joseph Adolph Wilhsiin
Puls, Clans Wilhelm
Rattke, Johann Cbristopb
Ridiger, Jobann Gottfried
Rieger, Gottfried
Ries, Hermann
RiiWenkonig, Oeorg
Rillrichr, Gottfried
Rodemann, Maximilian Louis
Schater, Carl
Sandwe'yer, Frederich Wilheln
Sauer. I'hristian Wilhelm
Sauerwald. Bernhard
Scbiirher, Friedrich Ludwig
Scbunke. Carl Priedrich Julius
Scbwarz, Johann Friedrich
Schafer, Heinrich
Schedtli*h, Carl Gustav
Scheffel, Heinrich Christian
Schinckel, Peter Leonhard
Schizmer, Johann Georg
Schmidt DieHrich Heinrich
Schmidt, Jacob Ptrdinand
Schmidt, Johann Phillipp
Schnaars, Johann Hinricb
Schoniitjr, (??sper Hemiich
Schrapel, Johann Gottlob
Schroder, Georg Friedrich
Schultz, Friedrich
Schultz, Johann
Schultz, Johann Sam. Gottlieb
Schwonberg, )oncbim Niclaus
Seelandt, Friedrirh
Segnitz, Edward
Sehroeder, Heinrich
Seidel, Johann Carl Heiorich
Seyler, Friedrich
Somrner, Johunn Gotthilf
Speerel, Heinrich
Srbrepel. Johsinn Traugott
Srhlitfke, Johann Gottleb
Stelxer, johann August
Strauss, Carl Wilhelm
Strauss, Friedrich Rudolph
Strauss, Johnnn Adotph
Sutter, Carl
Tbiele, Carl Heinrich
Thornus, Heinrich
Till. Johann Wilhelm
tiroth, Jacob Heinrich
Uerke, ^villiatn Ottornar
Voge, Johann Carl Jacob
Voight, August Alexander
Vurhauer, Jobann Andreas
Wa^ener, Franris
Walremath, Jobann Friedrich
Wedenieyer, Heinrich Wilheim
Weinerr, Triuuott
Weinert, August
Weinert, Johann Dienegott
Wentzil, Eroil
Wetzel Jolisnn Carl Wilhelm
Wichmann, Adolph
Wiitdig, Joseph
Wilhelm Ernst
Wirtb, Henry
Wittig, Fran*
Wo ler, Johann Cordt Wiiheln
Wscbe, Robert
Wsntken, Heinrich
Zenntr, Adolph Morilz Julius
Ziebuhr P^ter
Ziffr, DaMel
Zimmermann, Johhann Daniel

1 comment(s), latest 9 years, 9 months ago

Henry Henry b1813 Mogilov Belarus to Manchester England

The History of Henry Henry

Family Line:

Henry Henry & Ann Alice Milner
6 children including
Mary Alice Henry m Arthur Denham Finch

Henry Henry was born in Mogilov in 1813. On his marriage certificate 18th May 1840, his father is shown as Phineas Henry, Silk manufacturer. His father was born in 1789.

Phineas became a naturalised British citizen in 1845 at the age of 56, having lived here for 25 yrs. His naturalisation papers were signed by the mayor of Manchester and said he was a native of Mogilov.

The 1851 census shows Phineas him living at 'Parkfield' , Withington, Manchester. He is a widower age 63, his occupation is merchant & he was born in Russia. There are 2 servants.

He died on 30th Oct 1857 @ Kersal cottage, Great Warford (in the Cheshire countryside, a few miles from Manchester). The cause of death is serous apoplexy. He is a gentleman aged 68. His son, Henry Henry is in attendance, his address is 149 Higher Cambridge St, Manchester.

A book by Bill Williams about the Jews of Manchester says that Phineas Henry had a seat at the Halliwell St synagogue from 1825-1827. In 1827 he was the 1st Jewish resident in the Southern suburbs at Clarendon St, Chorlton Row.

Philip Hart?s (my source) uncle told him that his mother (nee Emma Mason, b. 1875) said the Henry family came from a Russian Jewish background. Phineas was widowed (we dont know when) & married an English woman (no record of it). The story is "his own family came over from Russia & drove round his home in a black carriage, a custom which showed 'he was dead', to his family." The family were said to have connections with the Tsar & cut off any inheritance to the English side.

Henry was married in the parish church of St. Michaels Appleby in Westmorland to Ann Alice Milner. His occupation is pattern designer. His residence is shown as Cheetham Hill, Manchester. His wife is living in Battleborough, Westmorland, where her father, James Milner, is a school master.

In the 1841 census the family is living at 169 Medlock St, Hulme. His occupation is pattern designer, aged 25, Ann Alice 25 & Mary Milner 50 (her mother!) Plus a house servant (Nb- rounded ages are shown on the 1841 census)

I have no 1851 census record at the moment.

After his father's death he owned a cigar store in a prestigious location in Picadilly, Manchester.
He was widowed on 6th Feb, 1862 when living at 114 Chatham St. Ann Alice Henry died aged 45 of rheumatism. Henry was present at her death and was a tobacconist at the time. I believe you have his details on the 1861, 1871 and 1881 census.

I haven't looked for him on the 1891 census.

He died aged 81 at 461 Edge Lane, Droylsdon, a suburb of Manchester. His cause of death was senile decay. His son, Alfred Henry, was present at his death on 17th August 1894.

Ann Alice Henry (nee Milner) was christened at St Mary's Nottingham on 25th Nov 1813 (IGI). The 1861 census shows her place of birth in an illegible beginning, it should read Nottingham. Her mother was probably Ann Hirst.

Her father, James Milner was probably christened at the same church on 18th Feb 1786, the son of Robert and Mary Milner (see IGI)

Phineas and Peter Henry (brothers) came to Manchester from Mogilov (now in Belarus). Their parents were Jews. They established a successfulsilk factory in Fountain Street.

The Seabrook / Finch Women

This entry is primarily about my Grandmother Marjorie Finch but includes some tales about her mother and siblings too.

Marjorie was born on 26th August 1921, the 7th child of Arthur Jester Denham Finch and Elizabeth Jessie Seabrook.

She was born at home in Manchester where her family had Russian relatives still living.

Marjories mother was apparently a forboding but loving woman. My mother remembers her as being a large woman who you did not cross, her husband by contrast was apparently a skinny and somewhat quiet man. Elizabeth's mother (Elizabeth Amelia Seabrook nee Thompson) had apparently been a somewhat unstable Irish woman who left her husband (or was left by him) while her children were still young. It appears Elizabeth and her younger brother were raised by their mother, their sister Minnie was raised elsewhere, possibly by her father. The mother eventually ended up in an insane asylum according to family tales but this has not been verified.

Elizabeth Jessie's volatility showed up in her own actions the most famous being the families change of religion.

The first four children were christened in the Catholic faith, as Elizabeth being of Irish descent was Catholic. We are not sure if Arthur was too. The family were not well off and food was often scarce although both Elizabeth and Arthur worked to put food in the mouths of their children. One day the local Catholic priest visited Elizabeth at home. He asked her to make a donation to the church, to which Elizabeth apparently replied that she was unable to due to them barely having enough money to feed their growing brood. This highly intelligent man then suggested to my great grandmother that she could sell the children's bed in order to get funds to give to the church. Elizabeth apparently chased him out of the house with a broom. All the children born after that event where christed in the Church of England!!

Marjorie developed a close relationship with her eldest sister Jessica Gertrude Violet Rose known as Jill. She was 12 years Marjories senior. Marjorie fondly told stories of how she and Jill would play together when Marjorie was a little girl. Jill would make up wonderful tales to stimulate Marjories imagination, one of which was relayed to me.

One day Jill gave Marjorie a matchbox and told her there was a fairy inside it. Marjorie carried the matchbox around for weeks talking to and playing with this make believe fairy.

Jill became the black sheep of the family. The expectation for young women in that day was that they would marry and my great grandparents apparently had encouraged Jill that she should do just this when she came of age. Jill however had other ideas and refused the idea, which apparently caused a great row. Jill ran off and went to teachers college and became a teacher. She was very successful and eventually became District Commissioner for Shropshire. She even had tea with the Duchess of Kent whilst in this position. Jill did not stop with her alternative ideas merely at the concept of being a single working woman. She took up with group of artists from the 1930s called the Lancashire Group of Artists. Her close friend was Robert Tusori. Robert was a wonderful painter and did the most lovely pictures of ballerina's, I was fortunate enough to inherit one of these from my Aunt Jill. Jill never painted that I am aware of but made the most wonderful pottery. She had her own little studio in later life where she would make pots, cups and other items.

The relationship between Jill and Robert was apparently a very close but totally platonic as it turned out that Robert and Jill were both homosexual. This was a closely guarded family secret up until about 15 years ago. Robert apparently asked Jill to marry him on a number of occasions, not for any purposes of love (other than the love of a friend) but because he thought it would give them both a degree of respectability whilst still being able to persue their true interests. Jill apparently would not entertain the facade. Jill did have a close female friend with whom she lived for many years in her later life. The woman's name was Rosemary but I do not know her surname. My grandmother and mother both later confirmed that Rosemary and Jill were lovers, and they apparently quarrelled frequently.

Jill eventually died in 1991 from a series of strokes. As she became worse she remembered less and less of current times and saw everyone as they were when she was young. Although frustrating at times my grandmother also found this could be amusing especially when Jill would call her young Marjorie (she was in her 70s) and would talk fondly about what they did as children.

The rest of the family were relatively conventional. The other girls married and had families as did Marjories brothers. The other family myster that does exist is that of Marjories youngest brother Lenard. Lenard was born about 1923. He apparently left England as a young man, bound for Australia and was never heard from again. It was thought he committed suicide off Sydney Harbour Bridge but I have found no evidence to support this idea. He was said to have married an Italian woman and to have worked as a mine cook possibly at Cooper Pedy in South Australia. He did returnr to England once but did not stay long.

I never met Minnie, she died of a heart attack in the early 1960s.

Louisa was another favorite of my grandmothers. Louisa had a sunny disposition and a ready laugh. I have no special stories about her but my meetings with her when I was younger indicated to me she was a lovely woman.

The other that we had close ties to was the youngest sister Kathleen. My grandmother was always a little jealous of Kathleen and felt that she was spoilt and indulged by their parents. Kathleen married well to Bernard Mills in the 1940s. Bernards family were apprently quite well off and Bernard himself became a very successful businessman. I think my grandmother who struggled financially most of her early life resented that her "spoilt" little sister then got an easy adulthood too. Kathleen did have her share of tragedy though when she lost her only daughter aged about 16 in the early 1960s.
Lynn and her boyfriend had been at his house when Kathleen was shot with a handgun. It appears they were playing Russian roulette and either didn't know the gun was loaded or did not think of the consequences. Lynn's boyfriend was arrested but because Lynn's fingerprints were on the gun he was exonerated. My mother says this was a terribly sad time for the family as Lynn was a lovely kind young woman, needless to say Kathleen and Bernard and their sons were devestated.

As they grew older Kathleen and Marjorie became closer and eventually lived only about 30km from each other. Kathleen died in 1993 (Bernard had died several years earlier) from cancer and her oldest son kept in contact with Marjorie and was very kind to her up until she died.

Marjorie was a remarkable woman who displayed amazing strenght of will in a time when women did not ususally take such a role.

She married Thomas Marlais Davies, son of Thomas Rees Davies and Jane Davies (her maiden name was also Davies) around 1943. Thomas had been a cook in the Army but was discharged at some stage either during or just after the war due to ill health. Marjorie had three children Valerie b1944, Alan b1946 and Michael b1950. Valerie and Alan were planned but Michael was a later surprise, especially given that by the time of his birth Thomas was very ill and deteriorating.

Marjorie worked when the children were young and Thomas was unable to work, but I am not sure what she did at this time.

Thomas died on 30 Apr 1955 at Guys Hospital London of heart failure. He was just 39. He apparently had weakened valves as a result of childhood illness - rheumatic fever I think. Apparently the operation that could have cured him became common practice within a year or so of his death.

My mother's memories of her father are of an angry short tempered man but this was probably as a result of his dehabilitating illness and the fact he was aware of his impending early death. My grandmother's recollections of him to me from earlier in their marriage was that he was a wonderfully strong and funny man. He loved his children and family dearly and was very frustrated by his inability to care for them as he became more ill.

My grandmother tells me the funny story of when she was in labour with her youngest Michael, who was born at home. Thomas had apparently become irritable and demanding by this stage of his illness. Marjorie was upstairs with the midwife in labour awaiting the impending birth of her baby. Thomas apparently came up to the room and banged on the door demanding to know where the sugar was for his tea. Before the midwife could tell him to go away Marjorie had told him to look in the cupboard. She said she could hear him stomping back down the stairs. Michael was apparently born within the next few minutes.

The family were still living in Whitstable Kent (where all the children were born) in 1953 when the town was flooded. My mother has a clear recollection of it. Their house was two story and they all went to bed the night before. They were awoken to Alan complaining that there was water on the steps. Marjorie thought that Michael had wee'ed on the steps in the middle of the night and got up to investigate, discovering there was an awful lot of water on the steps because the whole of the bottom part of the house was submurged. Sometime later in the day they were rescued by a boat and had to climb out of an upper bedroom window to get to it. They lost many of their possessions to the flood. They stayed with friends for a few weeks while the house was cleaned out. My mother says she can clearly remember that there was mud everywhere and it stank.

Info about this flood can be found on this website: http://www.oysta.fsnet.co.uk/fl_map.htm

After Thomas died life became very hard for Marjorie. Single supporting mothers (for any reason) were unusual and frowned upon in those days. Well meaning relatives from Thomas' family tried to take the children from her to be raised with their families but Marjorie resisted and insisted on bringing her children up herself.

She kept working and became a trainee teacher. After she completed her training she was sent to work in Corby. I am not sure which school she started in but she ended up at Beanfield Infants School.

In the early 1960s Marjorie met Howard Holloway a widower who worked as a supervisor at the Corby Steel Works. They married in Corby in 1964. Both had a love of ballroom dancing and won many medals. Majorie's boys lived with her and Howard for some time. Valerie had gone off to join the Wrens in 1962 and was posted down south as a radio operator. Eventually Alan left and joined the Army then later the Merchant Navy. I am not sure what work Michael did when he eventually left home.

Valerie met an Australian sailor, Thomas Jarrett, in late 1964 and after a speedy courtship they married in Corby in 1965. They moved to Portsmouth where Thomas was posted. Their daughter Deborah was born in Fareham in 1966 and their son Mark in Portsmouth in 1968. Thomas and Valerie then moved up to Scotland where Thomas was involved in the sea trials for the (then) new Oberon class submarines. Marjorie visited the family as often as she could.

In 1969 Thomas had to return to Australia and Valerie and the children emmigrated with him. Marjorie did not see them again until 1974 when Valerie returned with the children for a visit. By this time Marjorie was the headmistress of the Beanfield Infant School.

The visit with the grandchidlren was wonderful. She took us children to play in the woods over the road from the housing estate where she and Howard lived. I fondly remember running through the woods, climbing trees and the stories my grandmother told me of the magical creatures that lived in the woods - probably the same stories Jill had told her 50 years earlier. I remember being stung by nettles and being rushed home for a bath to stop the stinging. We fed the blue tits in her garden, took photos and developed black and white photos in the dark room (an improvised cupboard) under the stairs. She took me to school (my brother was too young) and I spent the day in one of her classes with all the children who thought I had a funny accent. I even made a friend who played with me several times during my holiday and the class gave me Dolly Mix lollies as a present. The only sad thing that happened was when Mark was playing with another little boy on an open area behind my grandmother's unit. They were playing with a ball or some toy and the other little boy ran out onto the road after the toy and was killed by a car. The police interviewed my brother but he was too young to really understand what happened.

Marjorie and I started writing letters to each other about this time (as did Aunty Jill) and I remember eagerly awaiting those letters. She would tell me about what was growing in the garden and what the children were doing at school as well as any competitions that she and Howard had entered.

About 1979 Howard became ill with cancer and they bought a cottage in the village of Weldon just outside of Corby. Marjorie continued to work but also cared for Howard as he ailed. He died in 1981.

Diary of Rev W.B. Clarke: Voyage of the Roxburgh Castle 1839

This diary is an extract from a longer document that was written by the Reverend WB Clark during the voyage of the Roxburgh Castle in 1839. Your will find the 9 pages of the diary in my images.

Several members of my family sailed and died on this fateful voyage.

The family members were:

Samuel Barnes b1784 and his wife Philadelphia Selmes b1787.
Samuels children:
William b1809 (appears to be unmarried)
Samuel b1810 (appears to be unmarried)
Jane b1812 and her husband Henry Jarrett b1807 with their three young children Henry b1833, Jane b1834 and Thomas b1837.
James b1814 and his wife Sarah Ann Selwyn b1819c and their two young sons Samuel b1834 and James b1838.

Of the family members Samuel (Snr) and Sarah Ann both died on 11 May 1839. James' son Samuel died on 16 Feb and his other son James died just as they arrived in Sydney on 7 Jun 1839. All these events are mentioned in the attached diary. A very personal account is given.

Whilst it was a terribly sad voyage the family did eventually recover. Later in 1839 James married WInifred Henley and they had a further 6 children all of whom appear to have survived to adulthood.

Philadelphia Selmes married Jonas Unicomb in 1842. There were no children in this marriage but she appears to have been with him until she died of old age in 1870.

No spouses have yet been identified for either William or Samuel. Further details of William are unknown but Samuel lived until 1867 and died at Liverpool NSW.

Jane and Henry lived in several areas of NSW including Paramatta, Hunters Hill, Kissing Point, Ryde, Nowra and finally to Broughton Creek in Shoalhaven. They had a total of 9 children of which at least 7 of whom lived to adulthood - although Henry b1833 died as a young man in 1857 but by that time had married Jane Mitchell and had had five children at least two of whom lived until the 1940s.

Henry (snr) lived until 1886 and Jane until 1884.

Their daughter Jane married William Vidler b1830, son of William Vidler and harriet Waters of Kent. William and Jane had 17 children of which at least 14 lived until adulthood. They eventually settled in Jamberoo NSW and William diedin Terara and Jane at Barrengary.

Thomas b1837 married Kate Knight b1834 daughter of George Knight and Mary Ann Basset of Lodsworth Sussex. Thoams and Kate had 6 children before Kate died in 1870. Thomas then married Jane Vidler, sister of William, and had a further four children. It is from this line I am descended.

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James Jauncey & Mary Burlough (Burlow)

The following information was provided to me by another Jauncey researcher:

James Jauncey married Mary Bulough in 1815 in Ledbury Herefordshire. Mary's parents were Benjamin and Elizabeth Burlow and she was born on 2nd Nov 1789 and baptised on 14 Jan 1790 in Dymock Gloucestershire.

When Mary and James married James had been home on sick leave. he had been recupteratinig in England from June 1813 until Nov 1815 when it appears he was pensioned off. The exact date of his discharge is not known.

Kaye Jauncey provided information that allowed military archives to be checked proving that James was in the 81st Regiment of Foot, 1st Battalion in the Company under command of CAPT Andrew's in Apr 1804. There is a note that says he was transferred from the 2nd Battalion, but he could not be found on their payroll in the period before 1804. James was in the General Hospital from 5 Feb - 12 Apr 1804.

He appeared on the payroll of the 1st Battalion from Apr 1804 until Nov 1815 when he was transferred back to the 2nd Battalion with a note saying that "All men who are not acctually present on the Continent on 25 Nov 1815 have been transferred to the 2nd Battalion on Order of the Duke of Wellington.". There is no record of him being on the Battalion payroll after this date so it is presumed he was pensioned off.

One of the interesting mysteries about James is the statement on his gravestone which says that he was with Sir John Moore in Corunna. From research on the 81st regiment of Foot 2nd Battalion fought at Corunna with Sir John Moore. The battle of Corunna was actually a retreat through Spain during a very cruel winter of 1808/1809 culminating in a few days scramble for the ships while fighting a rearguard action against the French who were obviously trying to prevent the evacuation. Sir John Moore was killed during this battle and is buried at Corunna. There is no reference to the 1st Battalion being at Corunna. James was stationed at Malazzo Sicily during that period. This information is only from going by payroll returns and documents and deoes not actually prove if he was or was not there. He could have been at Corunna as he spent time again in hospital in Sicily from Mar 1809 - Oct 1811.

The 1st Battalion were credited with a victory at Maida Italy in 1804 and so it would make sense that James was at that battle. he was in the general hosital from 5th Feb - 12th Apr 1804 so could have been injured in the battle.

As mentioned before he was again recuperating in hospital in England from June 1813 and in fact until Nov 1815 when he appears to have left the Army.

Rod Selden discovered that James awas at the Hyde park Barracks when he first came to Australia and that there is a lake Corruna so perhaps it was advantageous to James to say that he was at Corruna. Afterall it was twenty or more years after the event so noone would actually know if he was there or not.

No information has been found for the period from when James was nine and was enlisted as a drummer boy by his mother until he joined the 81st in 1804.

On 2 Apr 1831 James was committed to Hereford gaol with Thomas Farmer for stealing 3 bushels of wheat from a Mr Gregg of Donnington. He was tried at the Hereford QUarter Sessions and was sentanced on 2 Aug 1831 to seven years transportation. He sailed on the Lady Harewood departing Portsmouth on 13 Mar 1832 and arriving at Port Jackson on 5 Aug 1832. His fellow convists were Thomas Farmer and Thomas Watkins.

John, the oldest son of James, was tried in Worcester aged 15 on 3 Mar 1832 for house breaking and was sentenced to transport for life. Sailed on Asia I departing downs and arriving at Port Jackson on 5 Aug 1833. He had originally been sentenced to death but this was apparently commuted to transportation for life. The year before he had been tried for stealing a watch and flogged.

In Jun 1831 mary Jauncey (nee Burlough) was in the debtors prison but was discharged at the Insolvent Debtors Court. When James was transported Mary was left with seven children (including John). The youngest was still a toddler. Unfortnately for her Harriet the eldest daughter, married Reuben Mason in 1833 and John had been transported. Life must have been very tough without the two older children to earn a wage for the family. In the 1841 census Mary is shown as a Charwoman and the two youngest William and Robert are still living at home with her.

Mary died on 29 Apr 1857 in Ledbury of heart disease and dropsy. On her death certificate she is shown as a widow although James was still alive in Australia and was a free man by that time.

Communication by the family must have been limited but must have existed as Harriet eventually sailed to Australia to join her brother John. Her husband Reuben had died on 21 Jul 1858. In 1879 she sailed to Australia with her two adult daughters Harriet and Olvie and her 12 year old grandaughter Frances Evelyn Mason. It is not known why she chose to come to Australia at that time, but it may be that John told her life was better there.

Harriet junior never married and is buried with her mother. Frances Evely is mentioned in Johns will. Frances married John McPaul and died in a car crash in 1939. Olive married William Edward Grubb in 1882 in Bega.

Harriet senior left being her married children. Including her son Martin Mason who had married Frances Barnden in 1866 and Frances Evelyn was their eldest daughter.

Martin and Frances had ten children, all daughters except the younges. Their fifth daughter was Ada b1876. She married William Augustus Parker in 1899. He was a baker and she was a dressmaker. They had only two sons William Martin Parker born 12 Jun 1901 and Ronald Edward Parker born 12 Feb 1914. There may have been other children who died young.

William Martin Parker married Edith Violet Chad about 1922 and had William howard Parker born in 1922. His son was Gerald Anthony Parker born 31 Mar 1927. Gerald married Pamela May Lewis on 21 Mar 1948.

Back in Australia John married Mary Carew, an irish girl from Tipperary. It is not known if she came to Australia as a free woman or as a convict. They married in 1842 which suggests John was released less than 10 years after his transportation. It is also possible that he might have been sent to work on a farm as convict labour and given permission to marry.

John and Mary had 9 children.
Their daughter Mary married John Otton in 1862.
Their son William married Sarah Jane Manson Shegog in 1866.
Their daughter Elizabeth married Henry Augustus Otton in 1865, he was possibly brother to John Otton.
Their son James married Elizabeth Susan Jeffery in 1872.
Their daughter Margaret maried peter Horsman Wood in 1872.
Their daughter Julia married Robert James Jeffery in 1876. Robert was the brother of Elizabeth Susan Jeffery. It is from this line that I am descendant.
Their daughter Agnes married John Marten Jeffery in 1883, another sibling of Robert and Elizabeth Jeffery.

Of their other children John b1843 died in 1932, I have no record of if he married or not; and Ellen b1854 died in 1865.

Ferdinand Pietsch and Johanna Hell

The search for this couple - my GGG grandparents - began with a family myth.

There was a young man and a young woman who lived in Germany. They were in love but for some reason could not marry. Their families stopped them from seeing each other and in response both left their families. Unknown to each other they both made their way to Australia and ended up in Adelaide. One night they both happened to go to the local German club where they had a joyful reunion. They married shortly after and lived happily ever after.

We have no idea if this story is true in so much as if they knew each other before coming to Australia but the fact that I had ancestors from Germany who married in Adelaide did prove to be true, so perhaps the love story is as well.

Now the facts:

Ferdinand August Pietsch (known as August) was born in 1822 in Grinberg Germany. It is not known if this spelling of the town is correct or not but it is how it is spelt on records in Australia. Nothing is known of his life in Germany at this time.

His parents were Johann Godfred Pietsh and Anna Rosina Walter. This informatino is from August's death certificate.

Another researcher found August listed on the Brandenberg Prussia Emmigration Records with his surname spelt as Paetsch. August arrived on the Leontine in Adelaide in 1848 and is listed on the passenger manifest for that ship.

August is listed on his natrualisation papers as being a carpenter, on his marriage and death certificates as being a Farmer. His father is listed as being a Cloth Manufacturer.

August was natralised as a citizen of the colony of South Australia on 30th Dec 1848. Archive reference CRS A821/1 Folio 5. On this document it gives his age as 26yrs and his home location as being Grinberg in Lilesia. It states he had been in the colony for six months, which makes his arrival around Jun / Jul 1848.

Johanna Eleanora Hell was born in Howstorf Germany in 1827. Like August the confirmed spelling of her birthplace is not known. To further complicate things her surname is spelt alternatively as Hell, Hull, Hill and Hall on various documents and references. Of original documents it is spelt Hill on her death certificate and Hell on her marriage certificate.

Sometime in 1848 / 1849 August and Johanna either met for the first time or reunited. They married on 3rd Oct 1849 at the school house in Gowoler (sp?) Town Adelaide by the rites of the Lutheran church.

August's age is given as 27 and Johanna's as 22. Their respective occupationsa re Fojner(?) and maid servant. No parental details are provided on this document. Interestingly there is a witness Thomas Hall but I do not know if he is related to Johanna. It seems unlikely as his surname appears to be clearly spelt as Hall while hers is clearly spelt as Hell.

Their first child Edward Augustus Pietsch was born in Adelaide in 1851. He later married Anna Voss in 1878 and moved to Inverell NSW where he died in 1920.(NSW BMD 20019/1920 NSW BMD 5087/1878).

The family then seem to have moved to Perth for a couple of years. Their oldest daughter Wilhelmina (Minnie) Annette was born there in 1952.

The stay in Perth did not last for long as they sailed for Victoria on the Queen of Sheaben in 1852.

On 20 Jan 1854 August and Johanna purchased property at Muckleford Victoria where they lived for the rest of their lives.

In 1855 Albert Ferdinand Pietsch was born, followed by Gustvus Albert in 1856/57, Emile Marie on 20 May 1857, twins Frederick William and Marie in 1858 and Louisa and Paulina in 1859/60. (It does not appear these two girls were twins.)

In 1860 August gained a letter of referral from Mysterg & Halfnell Merchants and James Roche (trade illegible).
The letter stated:

To His Excellency Sir Henry Barly KC Captain General and Governer in Chief of the Colony of Victoria.
The memorial of August Pietsch of Muckleford. Respectfully Sheweth that your memorialist is a native of Prussia in Germany.
That your memorialist is 38 years of age and is a farmer.
That your memorialist arrived in Adelaide by the ship Leontine in the year 1848 and in the Colony of Victoria by the ship Queen of Steaben in the year 1852 and has been resident therein since that time.
That your memorialist begs to refer Your Excellency to the annexed certificate of character and of the correctness of the statements herin and obtained from respectable persons to inhom Your after morialist has been known since his arrival in the Colony.
That you Memorialist intends to settle for life in the said Colondy wishes to obtain a vote in the election of members of Parliament and to purchase real property and that on there grounds your Memorialist desirous of availing himself, in the priveleges granted to Aliens by the Act of Council in Victoria.
That your Memorialist therefore respect fully requests that your Excellency may be pleased to grant to your Memorialist a Certificate under the provisions of the ??.
Set Confering upon your Memorialist the privileges of all material born British Subject with such exceptions as to Your Excellency may seem meet.
Find your Petitioner will ever pray.
Dated this 15th day of September 1860
August Pietsch

Accompanied by two recommendations.

Following this August was presented with Certificate of Naturalise on 18th September 1860. On that it confirms August as a Farmer who was native of Prussia and arrived on the Leontine.

After this they had a further four children:
Gustave Dolpha b1863
Henry Oswald (Harry) b1864
Anna Amelia (Emily) 5 Jan 1867
Thomas Louis (Lewis) b1870

Of the children Albert married Janet Colquoun m 1875. They lived in Newstead Vic and later Footscray Vic.

Anna Amelia married Richard Richards on 2 Nov 1887. She died in 1913.

Thomas Louis married Juia A Penns in 1894.

August died on 24th November 1885 from Pulpitation of the Heart and exhaustion at the age of 63 - which probably means he died from the effects of a heart attack.

Gustvus Albert, Emile Marie and Louisa are not listed on his death certificate. I know from my own research that Emile died as a young child and presume the other two did as well.

Johanna died at the age of 70 on 1st Aug 1897 from Apoplexy and Paralysis which is an old fashion way to say she had a stroke. She was ill for 5 days before she surcumed. Her parents are listed on her death certificate but I am unable to read their names on the copy I have.

The descendants of August and Johanna are now spread over most of the east coast of Australia. They had 13 children and I have record of 21 grandchildren, 12 great grandchildren and 9 great great grandchildren (my father's generation) but no doubt there are others out there from descendants I have not yet found.