kerbent on Family Tree Circles

Thomas CRUMP was was born on 22nd November 1813 in Goudhurst and baptised a month later 2nd January 1814 in the Church of England, Goudhurst, Kent; his father was not identified on the entry.

I am trying to ascertain what happened to Elizabeth Ann Crump after the birth of her son.

As I see it there are two possibilities:-

Possibility one:- she could have remained single
I have only been able to find one entry for an Elizabeth CRUMP aged 52 born in Kent who doesn't appear to be married. She was living in Pucken Lane in the parish of Chislehurst, Kent She was living with Ann Smith aged 75 of independent means, Sarah and Ann Moustead(?) aged 8 & 6

Possibility two:- she took a partner
According to Thomas' 1841 immigration papers he was a native of ?Parish of Goudhurst ? Kent. Parents living at East Failry, Coxheath near Maidstone ? Fathers Name Wm Startup Mothers name Elizabeth?Unfortunately Thomas left England before the 1841 census, so I looked for an 1841 census entry for a William Startup living with an Elizabeth possibly his wife. I found the following:-

Address Coxheath, East Farleigh, Maidstone, Kent, England
William Startup, age 48, Ag Lab
Elizabeth Startup, age 51
William Startup 20, Ag Lab
John Startup 17, Ag Lab
James Startup 12, Ag Lab
Helenor Startup 10
Living next door to:-
Robert Startup, aged 24, Ag Lab
Elizabeth Startup, aged 27
Roseanna Startup, aged 1
Robert Waterman, aged 70, gardener
Mary Waterman, aged 55

I also found a marriage for a William Startup and an Ann Crump on the 10 Feb 1816 in Tudeley, Kent, England (IGI M135203) which could be them.

The question is where to from here, I am hoping to make connection with descendants of William STARTUP so I can find out out whether Elizabeth STARTUP was originally a CRUMP. Or perhaps some else has come across Thomas' mother living in Maidstone.

Sandra

When doing research for my illusive Crump Ancestors, I thought I had finally located my mysterious x3gr Grandfather alas after considerable delving I discovered that he couldn't have be mine. Close but not close enough.

Both Thomas Crumps came to Australia around the early 1840s,
Thomas Crump(1) my ancestor
Thomas Crump(2) the guy who I originally thought might have been my ancestor -Thomas Crump(1)
Both Thomas' were born in in the early between 1800s, within 3 years of each other.
Thomas Crump(1) c1815
Thomas Crump(2) 1818

Both Thomas' were out of general English population by early 1840s:-
Thomas Crump(1) according to his death certificate he had been in Victoria Australia for 32 years before he died, making his arrival date to Victoria in 1842
*the first positive record of Thomas in the Port Phillip District and was found in the 1845/46, in the LaTrobe Ward of the Melbourne Rate Books. He was the owner of a 4 roomed house with a Kitchen, Stable and Yard.
*There has been some speculation that may have immigrated on the Marquis of Hasting on 11 Oct 1840. arrived Sydney 4 February 1841 under Captain T.A Carr left Plymouth 11/10/1840, however nothing has been confirmed yet)
Thomas Crump(2) was convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 19/10/1840 of Larceny: Stealing a roll of flannel at the age of 22 and was sentenced to 7 years. He spent 1 year, 5 months on a Hulk. Before he was transported to Tasmania in Australia on the ?Candahar? left Portsmouth on the on the 17/3/1842 and arrived in Van Demons Land on 21 July 1842

My original thought was that it could be possible that possible that Thomas Crump(1) & (2) were the same person and that Thomas had been convicted in England and transported to Van Demon's Land and then somehow traveled to Victoria were he married my 3x great grandmother Selina Wheeler.

Thomas Crump(2) married Lydia Johnson and they were married on the 6 April 1846 (Yr 1846, Reg#2321) in Hobart. This is still consistent with the possibility that Thomas (1) & (2) were the same person as on Thomas Crump(1)'s death certificate it stated that details of his first wife were unknown, therefore when Thomas (1) remarried in 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, I initially thought that Lydia Johnson may have died between 1847 and 1850, making Selina Wheeler his second wife.

It wasn't until I found that Thomas Crump(2) died in 1866 according to an inquest held in Hobart on 7 Nov 1866, was accidentally killed, that I knew he could not be my Thomas(1) who did died until 1874 in Victoria, Australia.

In Summary

Thomas Crump(2)
Birth c 1818, his native place of origin was listed as Bethnal Green, London
Thomas was convicted at the Central Criminal Court on 19/10/1840 of Larceny: Stealing a roll of flannel at the age of 22 and was sentenced to 7 years.
He spent 1 year, 5 months on a Hulk. In the records only one family was mentioned an uncle whose name was John.
He was transport to Tasmania on the ?Candahar? left Portsmouth on the on the 17/3/1842 and arrived in Van Demons Land on 21 July 1842

August 1842 he spent his probation in a Station gang for seven months at Lovely Banks, which is north of Hobart on what is now known as the Midlands Highway.
He then moved to the Prisoner's Barracks where on the 19/5/1843 he was found to be neglecting his work and as punishment he was given 6 days solitary & then on the 17/6/1843 in the Probation Prisoners' Barracks where once again he neglected his work as punishment he was given two months hard labor on the roads presumably near Browns River.
He returned to the Prisoner's Barracks on and onto various work assignments in Sandy Bay, Hobart, & Bridgewater and then back to Hobart where on 4/11/1844 in Abbott, Hobart he was charged with misconduct in resisting a constable in the execution of his duty he was put in solitary for 14 days.

He was granted permission to marry Lydia Johnson and they were married on the 6 April 1846 (Yr 1846, Reg#2321) in Hobart.
Together they had 6 children
Thomas Henry Crump born 12 Dec 1846 (Yr1846, reg#2857)
John Walter Crump Born9 Oct 1848 (Yr1848, reg#3285) (died 22/11/1897)
1. Lucy Lydia Crump born 14 Apr 1851 (Yr1851, reg#3842)
2. Eliza Crump born 4 May 1853 (Yr 1853, reg#1853) (died 4/5/1853)
3. Eliza Crump born 3 May 1853 (Yr 1853, Reg#2249)
4. William Crump born 6 Apr 1854 (Yr1854, reg#4340)

He received his first ticket of freedom on the 7/7/1846 and his Free Certificate on the 19/10/1847
Inquest held on body in Hobart on 7 Nov 1866, verdict accidentally killed. Crime report 11 January 1867

Thomas Crump(1)
In contrast my ancestor Thomas Crump was born in 1815 - , Kent, England and died in 13 Apr 1874 Hawthorn, Victoria, Australia. Immigrated: arriving in Victoria in, 1842. according to his death certificate. He married twice, details of his first wife are unknown.
His second wife however was Selina Wheeler (Abt 1834 - 24 Jul 1899) married on 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, , Victoria, Australia
their children were:
1. William Crump (1851-1866)
2. Theophilus Crump (1853-1930)
3. Albert Crump (Abt 1855- )
4. Walter Crump (Abt 1862-1923)
5. Christina Crump (Abt 1864-1882)
6. Thomas Crump (1866-1948)

I have not yet been able to find any reference to any of Thomas' family of origin making it very hard to go back any further.

Still looking for the puzzle pieces

Sandra

Thomas Crump is my brickwall.

Thomas was born circia 1815, in Kent England. His first marriage, ?partiuclars of first marriage unknown? according to his Australian death certificate,. was pre-1850 as this is when he married his second wife on the 30 Dec 1850 in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, Selina Wheeler, who was 19 years his junior. Thomas lived in Victoria, Australia for 32 years before he died.

It is thought that he may have imigrated to Australia on MARQUIS OF HASTINGS a private ship arriving on the 11 Oct 1841 in Botany Bay, this has yet to be verified.

I have not been able to find any record of his first marriage in Australia.
He may have been married in England before he came out to Australia. Presumably his first wife died or was deserted when he came out, as it is believed he travelled alone.

Thomas was a brickmaker, he lived and worked in and around Melbourne.

Let me know if there is a connection, I have found the Crump line a very difficult nut to crack.

Sandra

This article was originally published in Familytreecircles on 23 Oct 2007 and was updated on 13 Sept 2016.

Martha Carbis is my 3 x great grandmother, on her Australian death certificate it states that her father's name was Richard Carbis and her Mother was Ann unknown. Her father was a Mariner according to the death certificate. Martha married my 3 x great grandfather in 1812 in Paul, Cornwall.

As death certificates are not a reliable source of information, John Carbis (from the U.K) who runs the One Name Society Data for Carbis World Wide, was contacted as another possible source of information. He had in his possession the Marriage Banns entry for John Bassett and Martha Carbis of Paul Parish. On inspection of the Banns entry it was discovered that one of the witnesses on the Banns was a Daniel Drew.
Further research was then conducted to try and find a Carbis family whose mothers maiden name was Drew. When searching the IGI I used the First name of Ann married to a man with the surname Carbis to look for possible children. Eventually, I found a William Carbis who had married an Ann Drew who had amongst their children a Martha Carbis who had the same year of birth as my 3xgreatgrandmother.

William Carbis and Ann Drew had five children, all were baptised in the Paul Parish Church

i. Ann Drew CARBIS (1784- )
ii.William CARBIS (1789- )
iii. Martha CARBENCE (1792- )
iv. Martha CARBIS (Cir 1793-1882) (my 3xgreatgrandmother)
v. Richard CARBIS (1797- )

The idea that my 3xgreatgrandmother Marthas father was William Carbis rather than Richard Carbis is supported by the following 3 points:

1.The change of her father's Christian name was an attempt to hide family Convict connections.
A family story through the generations was that one of the early Bassett brothers (which generation this concerned was not clear) was charged for horse stealing in Cornwall but managed to escape to France/America and was never caught. Following this lead led us to look for some evidence of criminal activity.

The real story turned out to be much more interesting than the family legend after all.

In an article that appeared in The West Briton and Cornwall Advertiser and another article on the 7th April 1815 in the Royal Gazette on the 22nd April 1815 it appears that William Carbis Marthas father was involved in sheep stealing in 1813.
William Carbis, sen. William Carbis jun. and Francis Bassett, a father, son and son-in-law, were indicted for stealing two ewe sheep belonging to Miss Borlase, of Madron, in December 1812
"The bill" was found by the Grand Jury in the Crown Bar during the Lent Assizes in 1813. However, the proceedings were suspended as the all the accused had absconded. According to a report in the "West Briton & Cornwall Advertiser", when the constables went to arrest them they were unable to execute their warrants, as all three men had gone to sea.

Based on the newspaper story we were able to link Martha with her family as demonstrated below through their connections with William Carbis (in the newspaper referred as William Carbis sen.) and his five children with his wife Ann Drew the 3 connections are confirmed.

It is hard to know if this was her father’s first foray into criminal activity. Martha was married 9 months before this event took place and perhaps the shame was so great for Martha that she changed her father’s name, using her youngest brother’s first name to conceal her relationship? The white lie helped to distance hers from her father’s misdeeds (?). Once in Australia people were unaware of the families criminal and convict connections and only a vague tale of horse theft remained attributed to no-one in particular as a small reminder of what had been left behind.

2. Naming Patterns of the times as explained below were common practice between 1700 and 1875. Both the Carbis and Bassett families seem to have used them as evidenced by certain names recurring down through the generations. Using these patterns working back from the children of John Bassett and Martha Carbis it is quite possible that Martha's fathers name is William Bassett.


Naming Patterns 1700-1875
The first Son was named after the fathers father (Marthas oldest son is John)
Second son named after mothers father (Marthas second son is William)
Third son named after the father
Fourth son named after fathers eldest brother
First daughter named after mothers mother
Second daughter named after fathers mother
Third daughter named after mother
Fourth daughter named after mothers eldest sister
Exceptions to the pattern occur when the naming system produced a duplication of names.
In that case ,the name was taken from the next on the list.
Another break in the pattern could be caused by a death.
If a child died in infancy, then the parents would name the subsequent new born the same name
Taken from: Tracing your Origins. By Angus Baxter.

3. The informant for the death certificate was not a family member, and would not have knowledge of the background of Martha Bassett nee Carbis.

Based on the above evidence I have come to the conclusion that Martha's parents were most likely William Carbis and Ann Drew of the Paul Parish, Cornwall.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has anything to add to my conclusions or wishes to dispute them. It would be great to add something more. Establishing connections between families and generations is very challenging, its very easy to make jumps in logic before I've realised what I'm doing.
Sandra

Thomas Crump lived in Victoria, Australia for 32 years before he died of a ?Disease connected with the heart? and an Inquest was held on the 14 April 1874. He married Selina Wheeler in 1850, at that time there was no mention of Thomas having a previous marriage. On his death certificate however there is mention of a previous marriage ?partiuclars of first marriage unknown?.
It is still unclear when Thomas came to Australia although it does appear that he was born in 1815 in Kent England, although we have been unable to find proof of this, and there has been some mention that he may have imigrated to Australia on MARQUIS OF HASTINGS arriving 04 02 1841 in Botany Bay, (SR NSW Film AL 2134) which has yet to be verified. [the AL code indicates that his name may have been found on an Agent's Immigration Lists, (lists of immigrants in private ships))

Thomas was a brickmaker, he lived and worked in an around Melbourne.

If anyone can offer any further information or suggestions as to where to head next in my quest for information I would most greatful.

Sandra